Proportions 2.3 released

[PvK]

Oleg's explanation is exactly correct. Mothballing a large fleet is still a valid and worthwhile tactic in Proportions, but at least now it has a more relevant cost. I had been considering increasing it but was spurred by a suggestion from John Sullivan, who has been doing extensive LAN testing and AI development for Proportions. He suggested a minimum of 100% to unmothball. I thought I'd try 80% and see if anyone balked or found fault.

Also, consider that the default 20% is the same as one turn's maintenance for a non-mothballed ship - essentially you would always save a bundle by mothballing.

I think the comparison to new construction cost is reasonable. Manufacturing a new item can often be cheaper than restoring an old one. Compared to the cost of maintaining a ship turn after turn, it is a major savings, especially considering the pace and economics in Proportions.

Do some strategic math and thinking and stew on it, and as with everything, let me know if you have any suggestions.

PvK

Originally posted by Rollo:
Thanks a lot ,PvK.

How about this:
"* Increased cost of unmothballing ships from 20% to 80%."

dusting off the captains chair is almost as costly as building a complete new ship .

Rollo

[Captain Kwok]

I disagree with the exuberant mothball cost. It should be more than 20% yes, but less than 50%.

To unmothball a ship, it just requires some maintenance and recalibration of systems. Remember that unmothballing a ship does not update it technologically.

If you take in a refit at a maximum 50% of the ships orignal cost than that gives up to 100% to unmothball the ship and update it to most current tech. That seems reasonable doesn't it?

[Tenryu]

PvK, This,#2.3, is truly an awesome peice of work. Thanks again.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
More importantly, does it work? I've not been able to get the AI to respect 'desired speed' when engines ae given more than one standard movement and I don't know of anyone else who has either.

Yes, it does work. All or almost all of the AI's designs, for all AI's, even Neutrals, now build with correct numbers of engines, and even mix high-output engines with efficient engines to achieve different tradeoffs in speed versus range and cost.

The bad news is it is essentially all done by hand-tweaking, and required multiple entries for different sizes of the same design type. This is one of the main reasons why it has taken so much work to create decent AI's for Proportions.

The technique is to use the Max Speed line to specify the desired number of normal engines - the AI obeys.

PvK

---

Looking at the design files, all I see is '500' as the desired speed for every single design. If the limit is 255, how does this work?

Have you tried assiging a 'Majority Component ability' of Standard Ship Movement?

[PvK]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
More importantly, does it work? I've not been able to get the AI to respect 'desired speed' when engines ae given more than one standard movement and I don't know of anyone else who has either.

Yes, it does work. All or almost all of the AI's designs, for all AI's, even Neutrals, now build with correct numbers of engines, and even mix high-output engines with efficient engines to achieve different tradeoffs in speed versus range and cost.

The bad news is it is essentially all done by hand-tweaking, and required multiple entries for different sizes of the same design type. This is one of the main reasons why it has taken so much work to create decent AI's for Proportions.

The technique is to use the Max Speed line to specify the desired number of normal engines - the AI obeys.

PvK

---

Looking at the design files, all I see is '500' as the desired speed for every single design. If the limit is 255, how does this work?

---

Sorry, I mis-remembered. I think the "Desired Speed" value is semi-obsolete. I only ever set it to 254. If you see 500, it's probably one of John's or Oleg's. However I don't think that one does anything as long as it's high. The "Minimum Speed" is the important one. For example:

Minimum Speed := 8
Desired Speed := 254

This gets the AI to put 8 engines of the type it considers best on a ship design.

Have you tried assiging a 'Majority Component ability' of Standard Ship Movement?

No I haven't. I bet it would work ok, but I don't see why it would be better than using the Abilities section below, and since the Maj Component section is the only one that works for main weapons, and you only get that and the 2ndary one to specify those, I just use the Misc Abilities for other engine specs. For example, in Proportions specifying Misc abilities of "Warp Point - Turbulence" will get the AI to add some efficient engines, and "Extra Movement Generation" will get Gravitic Drives. You do need to reduce the "Minimum Speed" by the same amount, or the AI will cheat by violating the limits of a hull's specified design.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
I disagree with the exuberant mothball cost. It should be more than 20% yes, but less than 50%.

To unmothball a ship, it just requires some maintenance and recalibration of systems. Remember that unmothballing a ship does not update it technologically.

If you take in a refit at a maximum 50% of the ships orignal cost than that gives up to 100% to unmothball the ship and update it to most current tech. That seems reasonable doesn't it?

My interpretation of mothballing is a bit different in at least a couple of ways:

1) A mothballed ship has no crew. The old crew has been reassigned or laid off, so an entire new crew has to be raised and trained. In a space age society, superlatively-trained crew may be a major part of the cost of a ship.

2) The initial cost of a ship is only a down payment. I don't think a ship would necessarily start falling apart to the tune of 20% per month immediately after comission. So, consider the actual cost of fielding a ship is the build cost plus a year of maintenance fees, which is typically 100% + 10 x 20% = 300% the nominal cost of a ship.
If one builds a ship and immediately mothball it, the cost is only 100%. I would think this represents not providing a crew, and maybe not really finishing the design.

Other considerations:

In Proportions, empires don't just have 0-50k of resources reserve - an empire at peace usually has hundreds of thousands of resources in reserve. So it's not like the standard game, where the full price of a squadron of good ships could immediately deplete an empire's reserves. At 20% unmothball cost, in fact, it becomes barely noticeable to unmothball an entire armada. At 80-100% it's still not very much, but at least it's a noticeable dent, and not just the equivalent of a single turn's maintenance.

20% is just like one turn's maintenance for an average empire - it's like no cost at all. So without a high unmothball cost, there isn't even any noticable cost (compared to maintenance costs) of pre-building a massive armada and mothballing it.

I.e., 80% sounds like a lot until I consider that the purchase price is itself a drop in the bucket. Maintenance cost is usually 20% per turn, and it can take 10 turns to move to a training facility and train up, several turns to repair retrofitted components, several turns to even get to a first battle, etc.

PvK