Panzerjäger, SdKfz 8 FlaK 18, etc. ...

[Arralen]

I just fired up SPWW2 again, and looked for some nice tank busting fun, and thought about running a tank hunter company - not necessarly german, as that feels like cheating sometimes ...

Looking through the possible units/formations for the first "tank destroyers", I found the "SdKfz 8 FlaK 18" (unit #484), available from 2/40 - and wondered where, how and by which unit is was deployed. As I do have exactly zero literature available, and both my grandfathers didn't serve in WW2, all I could do was ask google for info, and it came up with 2 interesting links:

Die selbständigen Panzerjägerabteilungen der Wehrmacht
by James A. Broshot and Jason Long
http://panzerjaeger-info.fuehr-online.de/html/WH2.html

88mm guns on half-track chassis ??
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=47&t=122195

If I throw together the info from both threads, it appears to me that the "SdKfz 8 FlaK 18" was exactly used by one company, during a limited time span ...


--------------------------------------------------

1./Panzerjäger-Abteilung 8

[Niehorster: late 39 issued six 8.8cm Flak 18 (Sf.) and became independent
10 May 40 attached to 2nd Panzer Division
22 Jun 41 XXXIX Panzer Corps, 3rd Panzer Group, Army Group Center]
29 Sep 41 9th Army, Army Group Center, Operation Typhoon
29 Jan 42 redesignated as Pz.Jg.-Kp. 601


Panzerjäger-Kompanie 601

29 Jan 42 formed by redesignation of 1./Pz.Jg.-Abt. 8
[Niehorster: 28 Jun 42 assigned to Panzerjäger-Abt. 521 as its third company. Equipped with four self-propelled 88mm guns and two self-propelled 50mm guns.]
late 42-early 43 redesignated as 3./521


Panzerabwehr-Abteilung (mot.) 521
Panzerjäger-Abteilung 521

25 Aug 39 mobilized in WK I
2 Apr 40 reorganized with 4.7cm SP guns
10 May 40 Panzer Group von Kleist; self-propelled with three companies @ 9 x 4.7cm PAK(t)
24 Jul 40 transfer from 2nd Army, Army Group C begins
22 Jun 41 XXIV Panzer Corps, Second Panzer Group, Army Group Center (4.7cm SP guns)
Mid-Aug 41, XXIV. Panzer Corps, 2nd Panzer Group, Army Group Center
29 Sep 41 2nd Panzer Group, Army Group Center, Operation Typhoon
[Niehorster: 28 Jun 42 XVII Corps, 6th Army, Army Group South with two companies of Marder IIs, one company of Panzerjäger Is, and one platoon with two self-propelled 128mm guns and one self-propelled 105mm gun]
Jan 43 destroyed at Stalingrad
15 Apr 43 reformed as schwere Panzerjäger-Kompanie 521
1944? expanded into a full abteilung
15 Dec 44 has 8 Jgdpz IV, 8 StuG, 5 Jagdpanther on hand
21 Dec 44 attached to 3rd Parachute Division, I SS-Panzer Corps, 6th Panzer Army
FtF: Army Group North/Third Army, 1x 1-10 mot AT II 521, Sep I 39
FoF: May I 40, Panzer Group Kleist, 1x 1-10 mot AT II 521
TFH: Sep I 40, 1x 1-10 mot AT II 521
SE: Jun II 41, Army Group Center/2nd Pz Group, 1x 1-10 mot AT II 521
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only 6 vehicles to the "1./Panzerjäger-Abteilung 8", and maybe some in reserve?

And what are those SP guns mentioned? 47mm might be JgdPz I, but what are 50mm, 128mm and 105mm supposed to be?

Is it possible to add core points during a great campaign, to simulate the jump from 1 company to the whole 3-company Abteilung?

Finally: Any suggestion for non-german tank busting fun? Japanese (but they didn't have tanks..), or Italian Semovente maybe (though I'm seriously lacking any formation/deployment info here..)?!?!

thanks !

[PatG]

Since the Germans were the kids with the cool toys, their OOB is packed with units that were never manufactured in any great numbers.

I can't speak to the German units - though apart from the 105mm all are standard AT guns.

Add core points? - Yup you can start with a platoon and work your way up to a battalion if you want to. (and get enough points)

Tank busting: The obvious choice would be the Russians with their SU- and JSU- series. The Americans are next with their dedicated tank destroyer doctrine - a lot more fragile than the Jags/SUs though.

Early Brits are "interesting" - 2 pounders kick butt on early German armour and come in portee versions. Japanese - the only tank busting you are going to do is with Gunjin carrying satchel charges.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by PatG

Since the Germans were the kids with the cool toys, their OOB is packed with units that were never manufactured in any great numbers.

I can't speak to the German units - though apart from the 105mm all are standard AT guns.

Add core points? - Yup you can start with a platoon and work your way up to a battalion if you want to. (and get enough points)

Tank busting: The obvious choice would be the Russians with their SU- and JSU- series. The Americans are next with their dedicated tank destroyer doctrine - a lot more fragile than the Jags/SUs though.

Early Brits are "interesting" - 2 pounders kick butt on early German armour and come in portee versions. Japanese - the only tank busting you are going to do is with Gunjin carrying satchel charges.

And you won't usually need to destroy many tanks as japanese player, when playing japanese i use tank hunters and such for bunker busting.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Arralen

Looking through the possible units/formations for the first "tank destroyers", I found the "SdKfz 8 FlaK 18" (unit #484), available from 2/40 - and wondered where, how and by which unit is was deployed.



If I throw together the info from both threads, it appears to me that the "SdKfz 8 FlaK 18" was exactly used by one company, during a limited time span ...

There was probably 10 vehicles made and while it is true that it was only used by one company, it seems that the company operated this vehicle from 1939 and well into the summer of 1942, possibly all the way to january 1943. Three years of service, much of it in combat, is a surprising longivity for weapon made in such a limited numbers!

There is an error in the page you quoted: http://panzerjaeger-info.fuehr-online.de/html/WH2.html

The vehicles were inititally issued to 1.kp/PzJgAbt 8 as stated, but the company served with 1. Panzerdivision in May 1940. They played an important part in the divisions advance through Belgium, as it bogged down in front of the village Bodange, stopped by a mere company of Belgian chasseurs. The problem was that the vanguard of the division, the motorcycle and recce troops, did not have weapons sufficiently heavy to deal with the stone buildings in the village. So from noon until about six o'clock in the evening, the division was stuck, until the self-propelled 8,8cm started to knock holes in the buildings, dealing with the Belgian heavy weapons. After about an hour of house-to-house combat, the road was finally cleared.

The company was re-designated PzJgKp 601, but it was not assigned to PzJgAbt. 521 in June 1942 as stated. It became the 3.kp/PzAbt 559. By January 1943, the battalion was equipped with Marders and towed 7,5cm guns, so assumingly, the selfpropelled 8,8cm guns had been destroyed or worn out by that time.

There are records of one vehicle being lost in France in May 1940 in a friendly fire incident (bombed by Stukas). Another picture dated 1941 shows a destroyed vehicle in Russia. According to Niehorster, the company was down to four vehicles in June 1942.

The status for the vehicles appears to have been:

10 produced in 1938-39
6 issued to 1.kp/8. PzJgAbt
1 lost in France in May 1940
2 or more lost in Russia prior to June 1942 (one pictured in 1941)
1 issued to 3. kp/559. PzJgAbt in 1942(?) from a proving ground in Germany
June 1942 the company has 4 vehicles left
By January 1943, all seems to have been lost

And what are those SP guns mentioned? 47mm might be JgdPz I, but what are 50mm, 128mm and 105mm supposed to be?

The 47mm are likely Czech anti-tank guns mounted on Panzer I or Renault R35. The 128mm are likely the two 12,8cm selfpropelled guns built on the Henschel VK3001 prototype chassis. The 105mm guns are likely two 10,5cm K18 guns mounted on modified Panzer IV chassis in 1941. The 50mm could be the two 5cm anti-tank gun mounted on a Panzer II chassis delivered early in 1942.

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by cbo

June 1942 the company has 4 vehicles left

By January 1943, all seems to have been lost
cbo

As I recall we picked 10/42 as a happy medium between the known and unknown given the attrition they had suffered up to that time.

Don