Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?

[Barnacle Bill]

A mine in space would not work like an old-fashioned naval mine, exploding when something hit it. Space being vast, the chances that something will run over your mine is remote. Even with a proximity fuse, the warhead would have to be huge to cause any damage at all. So, for mines to be realistic in space, they would have to be one of two things:

1) A stealthed seeker that waited to activate until it detected a target in range. Some modern naval mines are this already.

2) A disposable (bomb-pumped) one shot non-seeking weapon that fired at the first target which came in range (or perhaps held fire once the target is in range until the range to target starts increasing).

In scenario 1, point defense would work and you'd need a bunch of them to be effective (enough to saturate PD).

In scenario 2, you could postulate that the bomb-pumping the weapon makes it more powerful than even massive base-mounted weapons. You'd avoid having to play out the interaction with PD. However, it could still miss and the target's ECM would help it miss (you'd need to add combat sensors in your mine design).

In either scenario, you'd have the possibility of ships coming through the sector without getting within range. Again, space being vast, the chance of a ship coming within range of even one mine as it passed through the minefield sector would be remote. The only way to deal with that is to make mines a warp point-only weapon which attacks only enemy ships using the warp point (either direction). Then you can postulate the mines are all set up within range of the warp point. Note that this does not save the concept of a simple explosive mine. If they were all close enough to the warp point to damage something coming through, the first mine that went off would either detonate or destroy all the rest. They'd all have to go off together, probably over-killing the first target and letting the rest of the enemy fleet come through unharmed.

Using the warp point-only idea in combination with scenario #2 would make mines work more or less like they do now, in warp point sectors. However, you'd still need to address the interaction between the mine's fire control system (scanners, combat sensors, etc..) and the target's passive defenses (ECM, cloak, etc...). Cloaked ships that could not be detected by the systems installed in the mines would simply not set off any mines.

So, what is mine sweeping in that case? Probably some sort of very short-ranged decoy that goes through the warp point first to set off the mines.

[Daynarr]

Here is a (large) quote I found in one of the Star Trek sites:

quote:

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The antimatter mine is a simple, no-frills weapon designed to be used in large numbers in order to restrict or deny an area of space to enemy forces. The simplest form of mine is the command model; this consists of a matter and antimatter charge held suspended in containment fields within a small case which also holds a communications mechanism. This type of mine would be deployed within the scan radius of a controlling vessel; the ship then monitors the area for the approach of enemy vessels, detonating a mine by remote control when an enemy vessel approached it. If a long duration minefield is required a sensor drone can take the place of the ship. The Enterprise-D used such a minefield to force the surrender of a Cardassian fleet in the McAllister Nebula in 2369.
More complex and effective mines are each fitted with their own sensor system. Although this makes the mines slightly more difficult to construct, such a minefield is not dependant on a single drone to run it and is hence more resistant to countermeasures.
The better mines are essentially tiny drone spacecraft, fitted with their own independent sensors and drive system, controlled by an artificial intelligence computer. The Federation Type 16 mine is an example of this type - it constantly surveys space around it to a radius of five light seconds, analysing anything which enters this zone and comparing it to a pre-programmed file of enemy vessel types. The entire minefield can be networked together, allowing them to share sensor information between them. If an enemy target enters the field the mines will determine which one has the best possible intercept solution; this mine will activate its micro impulse drive at the appropriate moment and track in on the target, detonating its warhead at the moment of closest approach. The Type 19 mine operates in a similar manner but the mines are fitted with a small warp engine to allow them to engage targets using warp drive. At this level the mine is essentially a photon torpedo capable of lying dormant for long periods.

The most recent development in Federation mine technology is the Type 21 mine developed by an engineering team on Deep Space Nine under Chief Miles O'Brien. At one metre in diameter this is one of the smallest mines in use by the Federation. It contains a photonic charge equal to several hundred grenades rather than a matter/antimatter charge, along with a micro impulse system and sensor system capable of scanning out to a radius of two thousand kilometres. This very limited range and destructive capability is more than offset by the use of both a cloaking device and a replicator system on the mines; when a target is detected the mines calculate the number required to destroy it, and allocate that number to the task. Once the target is destroyed the mines in that area latch onto the wreckage of both mines and target and use it in their on-board replicators to construct new mines. This allows the field to actually increase in size and density substantially whenever a target is attacked. This type of minefield is exceptionally difficult to clear; the use of a cloaking system on the mines means that an enemy can never be sure that every mine has been destroyed in a weapons barrage. Should only a handful survive to destroy another target, hundreds or even thousands more mines are quickly replicated and the field can be back up to full strength within hours. Such a minefield was deployed at the Bajoran Wormhole to block access by Dominion forces, triggering the Federation-Dominion war. The Dominion forces which captured DS9 at the outbreak of the war struggled several months to disable the minefield without success.

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[Seawolf]

Bill,

1 other idea which I think is what happens here, Each "mine" actually represents a minefield that has been laid down. Additional "mines" make the field bigger to catch more ships.

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Seawolf on the prowl

[Sinapus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Seawolf:
Bill,

1 other idea which I think is what happens here, Each "mine" actually represents a minefield that has been laid down. Additional "mines" make the field bigger to catch more ships.

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Well, in the game SE4 is based on, called Starfire, minefields are Groups of small autonomous missiles that attack ships entering their tactical hex that don't have the proper IFF code. They are defended against with point defense, and can be shot at by beam weapons if the ship has the right scanners, but only in that actual hex. (Small, difficult to detect targets.)

SE4 is a different game, so the different method of attack seems acceptable. I'm trying to remember if mines in Starfire can attack ships using ECM3 in cloaking mode. Probably not, but you never know.



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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[AJC]

this problem of strategic mine laying is easily modified in the components file - there are two listing for launching units- strategic and tactical - the second number listed is the strategic launch capablity..

change The Ability 1 Val 2 , to read 1000 and the launching component can launch as many units as required per strategic turn.

I left the limit of 1 unit launched per tactical turn on my Fighter Bay, Satellite Bay and Mine laying components because I agree with the limitation in combat.

example: Fighter bay-

Name := Fighter Bay I
Description := Area on a starship where fighters are stored for launch.
Pic Num := 58
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Unit Launch
Family := 15
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Fighters
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Launch/Recover Fighters
Ability 1 Descr := Can launch and recover fighters from space. 1 fighter can be launched per combat turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1
Ability 1 Val 2 := 1000
Ability 2 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 2 Descr := Provides 30kT of cargo space.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 30 December 2000).]

[Sinapus]

Ah, so that's how it's done. Haven't taken the time to go into the files and find it.

I'd try to limit that number a bit more. I think what they were trying to change was the advantage human players had over computer players, which was humans would design a minelayer with one mine layer and a bunch of cargo bays. The limit should be something like the number of small mines (or fighters, or satellites) that can be launched by that bay. Or maybe five to ten times that much.



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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[Tomgs]

I changed it a bit differently in my files. I made the amount to be launched equal to the level of the component. So a level 2 mine layer can launch 2 per turn. This is still a bit of a limit but it is possible to live with and just maybe the computer can deal with this small increase better than an larger number. I don't often use mines anyway and I can live with a few satelites launched per turn. Others can set different limits according to their preferances. I usually try to set limits based on level I like the idea that if you invest research points you get some added benifits from the technology. I may increase the cargo size of the components a bit more also because the AI doesn't seem to put any cargo bins on its launcher ships, maybe this will even it out a bit more. I will have to be careful not to increase it too much or I will see transports full of fighter bays and mine layers.