Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC

[Squirrelloid]

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Preference is based on the nation I'm playing and what it needs. Some nations need rainbows. Some need SCs. Some need a bless chassis. Some need a focused forger. Some just need something cheap so they can take great scales. Some need a compromise between two of the above. Some can afford to do something else entirely (Lord of the Gates comes to mind).

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

I know protection interacts weirdly with damage, because the RNG is bugged. But try it before you say it doesn't work.

An E9 cyclops has 29 protection. He'll also average more than 100hp with dominion bonus. With no gear he can handle non-archer infantry. Figure you expand turn 2, move home turn 3, and that gives you time to forge a weapon and a shield to equip him for expanding again on turn 4 and onwards. Assuming you don't run into something egregious like someone with a skull talisman, you'll expand perfectly fine.

I gained 1 affliction (-4 str, oh noes) in year 1, and that was just random bad luck. I expanded on turns 2, 4-11. I used an enchanted shield and sword because I grabbed an astral power at random. I made sure to target provinces that were only standard infantry with or without archers OR tribal groups. (No barbarians, no heavy cavalry, light cavalry would probably be ok). Actually, the parry 7 on enchanted shield is pretty respectable, not sure how much of a difference that made against archers.

Once you get Conj3, you're also net-neutral on fatigue after SEP, which makes you immune to critical hits. You should research it sometime in year 1.

I mean, would you rather have awe? Sure. But the Cyclops *can* go without.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I know protection interacts weirdly with damage, because the RNG is bugged. But try it before you say it doesn't work.

An E9 Cyclops has 29 protection. He'll also average more than 100hp with dominion bonus. With no gear he can handle non-archer infantry. Figure you expand turn 2, move home turn 3, and that gives you time to forge a weapon and a shield to equip him for expanding again on turn 4 and onwards. Assuming you don't run into something egregious like someone with a skull talisman, you'll expand perfectly fine.

I gained 1 affliction (-4 str, oh noes) in year 1, and that was just random bad luck. I expanded on turns 2, 4-11. I used an enchanted shield and sword because I grabbed an astral power at random. I made sure to target provinces that were only standard infantry with or without archers OR tribal groups. (No barbarians, no heavy cavalry, light cavalry would probably be ok). Actually, the parry 7 on enchanted shield is pretty respectable, not sure how much of a difference that made against archers.

Once you get Conj3, you're also net-neutral on fatigue after SEP, which makes you immune to critical hits. You should research it sometime in year 1.

I mean, would you rather have awe? Sure. But the Cyclops *can* go without.

I have tested a Cyclops without Awe in the past, and again just now to reacquaint myself with it. And while they can solo Indy's without Awe, I found it made expansion a very nervous affair. As with red numbers popping up almost every round of battle, I was left constantly right-clicking during the replays to check whether that last hit was the one that left the permanent mark. And not all nations have an early shield forging option to help out.

Like many things in Dominions, I feel it falls under the category of 'it can be done, but are the odds really in your favour enough to risk it'. Probably ranks the same as attacking blind on turn 1 in my books. Once or twice when I tested just now I had an injured Cyclops after his first battle because the border intel was pretty light on the truth with regards the actual number of troops in the province. And it seems it didn't take much numbers wise to swing the odds between a win and a risk.

Some nations could pull it off easier than others for sure, such as those with national healers. So you are right that E9 does give that extra bit of security without Awe, but I still think Awe is the better option with or without the E9, even if it costs a scale or two. Especially for newer players who are still learning the different types of Indy's that are in the game.

Guess a lot depends on how lucky you feel your gambling arm is on any given day. I know mine is jinxed though, so I tend to side more with the sure odds stuff