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July 3rd, 2010, 07:38 AM
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
It depends. In some cases awake pretender can help greatly and this is especially true for nations with broad magical skills, like Arco.
But, obviously, if you're sure you may beat a rush (good troops, bless, fast research), you don't need it.
There's another important point here, a psychological one. A rusher will in the most cases avoid meeting an awake pretender. Of course, jags do beat a PoD or a Wyrm but if Mictlan player has a choice, he will choose a weaker target. That's obvious, I think.
AND another point is that early war is always bad. If you lose, you're dead, if you win but are unable to kill your attacker (and you, most probably, are because he keeps recruiting his sacreds and knows your counters) then you both are far behind in comparison to other nations who were expanding and building castles. That's also obvious.
So, you need to not only be able to defend against a rush but also to show the potential rusher you're an improper target. An awake SC is in the most cases a good "go somewhere else, please" even for Mictlan.
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July 3rd, 2010, 08:04 AM
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First Lieutenant
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
Yes, Ano put it in words better then I did. The best way to beat rush is to avoid it, but in order to do so you need not to rely on diplomacy entirely - there definitely should be something behind your speeches your opponent could 'feel' via scoregraphs or scouts. What should it be? An awake pretender? Good startup research? Bless? Strong PD? That's situational. But there must be something better then "I'll just start the game an keep my fingers crossed nobody attacks me for first 10 turns."
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July 3rd, 2010, 07:36 PM
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Major General
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
FWIW, by the time I encountered Niefl I had Alt 2 and could have killed an early rush of giants with carnutes and druids without real difficulty. So I was ready.
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July 4th, 2010, 10:01 AM
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General
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
Would you recommend that also for ND games?
EDIT: While I generally agree with the sentiment of behind your suggestion I did personally lose early wars in RAND game due to lack of awake SC and I have won or survived early wars due to having an awake SC.
Some nations need that awake SC. Others, that can make a big difference with some research are well suited for awake RB/Research pretender.
EA Caelum comes to mind but not the only one on the list.
The best awake SCs IMO are either pathless Wyrm (to help with early expansion - with graphs on high province count is best deterrent to rush) or an immortal like risen oracle (E+A paths so he remains useful till endgame).
In LAND RAND I didn't stand a chance as Machaka due to taking sleeping master lich (for endgame S+D) then being invaded by Van (check, I handled that threat and almost killed the aggresor when) also invaded by the jag warriors of Zeldor.
The point is, the awake SC wouldn't have made a difference at that stage but:
Awake SC -> great early expansion, maybe conquer a weak target -> Zeldor attacks a target that is perceived weaker.
YARG is the opposite example. I got Bogarus. Took an awake Wyrm. Had a great start only botched by a stupid, needles war that neither side wanted with LA Ctis.
Last edited by WraithLord; July 4th, 2010 at 10:17 AM..
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July 4th, 2010, 11:05 AM
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General
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
One more comment. I totally agree that over research early on is not worth the investment. If I see a small-medium nation with high research I may very well think - "hey, here's a good target" - a player who rushes to const. 8 or conj 9. or whatever and dislikes or not willing to commit his mages to war.
I personally like my mages out there fighting with my armies rather than sitting at labs researching. So I do very much like Squirrelloid suggests: Plan ahead. Build a research path that is optimal for my situation. I then invest in research just to get those key spells on time.
Example: In one of Pasha's early RANDs I got Marverni. I had an awake F Dragon SC. That wasn't enough to neither deter nor stop EA Pan's rush at me. So I had those druids out in no time with the spells I made sure to research. Them druids absolutely decimated Pan. I remember I was quite surprised at how effective they actually where.
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July 5th, 2010, 05:40 PM
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Corporal
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
Threatening blight spam with Agartha can also be a good deterrent.
A blood 9 blessing could also work against an early giant rush like niefel jarls. The automatic cursing + chance of horror mark would be somewhat crippling.
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July 6th, 2010, 01:46 AM
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BANNED USER
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
I happen to love blight as agartha - and yes I use it against niefle. As well as botox bows.
Howeverwith a standard n6 regen I dont' think niefle is going to be all that worrieda bout your blood curse.
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July 6th, 2010, 05:11 AM
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Corporal
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
I don't know the cursing effect is 100%. The horror mark chance I don't know. It wouldn't stop a rush, but the rusher would have a lot of cursed and horror marked units afterwards. I would need to experiment a bit.
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July 6th, 2010, 12:08 PM
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Major General
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
Spending a pile of points on B9 for a very poor deterent doesn't strike me as a good use of pretender points. You'd almost certainly be better off with one or more of F9, W9, E9, or S9, assuming you plan on using sacreds at all.
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July 6th, 2010, 01:00 PM
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Major General
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Re: Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender
Another thing that people tend to overlook is the very strong utility an awake rainbow pretender gives you in a rush situation. For example in the above Marverni example taking an awake sage and you can have either blade wind or destruction in time for an early rush depending on who your neighbors are, or if you were worried about Sauromatian archers then you could get to arrow fend/flaming arrows (cast by your pretender) with just a bit of stalling...and I'm guessing your slingers might fare a bit better. People tend to think that a raindbow leaves you weak in the early game, but what an awake rainbow does is make sure that you've got some decent spells by your first fight which (depending on the situation) can be much more useful than a poorly outfit SC.
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