what about the future?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Why is it niche?

- Turn based strategy is niche. Very hard to get a AAA publisher for. (Yeah, I know it is a circle definition, it is niche because the big boys say it is niche). There are very few exceptions, civilization, and some handheld tbs games. And only civ has some depth.

And yet one of the premier CivIV mods was a fantasy mod. There's clearly demand for a 'fantasy Civ' game. I don't think it would be that hard to get a large publisher for one (so long as you had developers willing to actually put the effort in to turn out a first rate product).

- It has a humongous learning curve. As almost all tbs games have. This makes it hard to pick up and play. Which makes it niche.

This is what a tutorial game would be for. No, not something in the manual on paper, a scenario that walked you through playing the first 20 turns or so with pop-ups and scripted events.

Actually, thats the first thing Dom3 would need done to it to be mass-marketable: have hooks in the code to allow scripted events.

- Comparing it to Civ isn't totally fair. Civ is the exception to the rule. You should compare it to other AAA tbs games. Ow wait... these don't really exist... why would that be?

Master of Magic was also tremendously successful. Master of Orion was tremendously successful (1+2, 3 was an abomination and failed not because it was turn based, but because it was a poorly composed set of 'features'). Panzer General was hugely successful, and that franchise is still alive and well (and still turn-based!). Combat Mission was quite successful and spawned two sequels (all 3 within the last decade). Saying TBS is dead seems to show a lack of knowledge.

I can't comment on the success of Elemental (although it seems to have been released as a beta...), but its a fantasy civ game that just got released.

- Would the 14 year old the current halo/gears of war crowd play Dom3? Or women? Would your mom play it? For most of these it would be No. So that makes it kinda niche.

There are women who play dom3. At least 3 of them. If the IRC population is any indication, women make up somewhere on the order of 3-5% of the dom3 player-base. Which for a conflict-driven game is probably pretty good.

My mom wouldn't know how to use a computer game, much less have a desire to play one. The over 60 computer game market is *really* niche.

Why are we trying to compete with the FPS crowd? Those aren't the competition. We should be trying to convince all the people playing FfH2 in Civ4 that what they really want to be doing is playing a TBS game that was *written as fantasy*. And we want to convince the board and war gamers that they could spend some time playing a computer game that has as much depth as the board/war game they like playing. That's your market. Its actually a pretty large market.

Seriously, do you know how many people play Axis and Allies? A lot. The A+A *tournament* at GenCon gets a whole room, and a pretty large one at that, all of which are people who enjoy boardgaming with strategic depth - and that's just one boardgame, and the people who play it seriously enough to compete in a tournament *and* travel to GenCon to do so. Sure, not all of them are necessarily interested in fantasy, but you don't need all of them to be interested. Or we could talk about the success of Battlelore, various LotR strategic boardgames, etc...

Nobody said that fantasy made it a niche game. I think it is the other way around.

And Warhammer and Avalon hill games are also niche. They appeal to a very specific set of people. And this group isn't that large you know.

Warhammer is popular enough that GW runs stores in major cities dedicated solely to Warhammer. Avalon Hill (now defunct of course) produced Axis and Allies, probably the most successful war game ever made after Chess. This group is huge. Clearly you've never been to a gaming convention.

Just compare tbs games with depth to adventure games. Both have great potential. But remain niche.

Already proven TBS is not that niche, see above. Not sure about adventure games - you'd have to define the genre =p. Because I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to in this day and age.

--------
Now, dom3 would certainly need some work if it wasn't going to be niche. But its work that shouldve been done anyway.

I do totally disagree that you need to genericize the fantasy elements, btw. FfH2 has plenty of interesting factions which aren't generic (it has some that are generic, which is unfortunate, but the factions that were included are what the creator chose to include, not what was demanded by the fanbase.) If you offer an even vaguely compelling fantasy world the fanbase will accept it as is.

I mean, hell, you could see Dom3 as just renaming 'generic' fantasy elements into other things, which is so common in fantasy literature these days its a trope unto itself. (Now, dom3 is using the original names, but if someone only knows 'elf' and 'dwarf', they'll see them as renames). I mean, 'sidhe' are elves. Svartalfar are dwarves. And anyone with half a brain can see that. To pretend dom3 doesn't have 'elves and dwarves' is to horribly delude oneself.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I don't think it would be that hard to get a large publisher for one.

"Publishers run a mile from anything with turn-based mechanics - it is regarded as too niche." - Julian Gollop Creator of X-Com. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...p#comment61000

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

This is what a tutorial game would be for. No, not something in the manual on paper, a scenario that walked you through playing the first 20 turns or so with pop-ups and scripted events.

Dom3 is a bit to complex to explain just in the tutorial. (Which Dom3 has actually).

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Master of Magic was also tremendously successful. Master of Orion was tremendously successful (1+2, 3 was an abomination and failed not because it was turn based, but because it was a poorly composed set of 'features'). Panzer General was hugely successful, and that franchise is still alive and well (and still turn-based!). Combat Mission was quite successful and spawned two sequels (all 3 within the last decade). Saying TBS is dead seems to show a lack of knowledge.

Master of Magic - 1994
MOO - 1993, 2 - 1996
Both not the best examples. I'm talking about the current market here.
Combat mission I never heard of before. So I don't know how popular it is. And isn't doing that good (according to 5 minutes of wiki searching: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...orce#Reception).
Yeah, panzer general is doing good. (The fact that you yourself mention that the whole series is still turn based, as if it is an accomplishment is a clear sign.)

When I said other AAA games, I meant other current AAA games. There aren't that many left. Sure there used to be big AAA games, but the gaming world has moved on. TBS has become a nice in which only a small amount of big titles can survive. (Currently only CIV). And most of them aren't innovative anymore. HOMM? Just play HOMM3, it is the best one of the series.

The main point remains that the market has little room for a lot of big AAA TBS games. Only a few of the very large amount that used to be created remain.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

There are women who play dom3. At least 3 of them.

*Laughs* ...

But that is the whole definition of a niche game. Only a select group of people play it. It has little appeal to women, young 14 year olds etc. So it is a niche game! Of you want it to get out of the niche, you must convince other types of people to play. This was the main point of the discussion. Is Dom3/TBS niche or not? If only a select group of males plays it, it is a niche game.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Seriously, do you know how many people play Axis and Allies? A lot. The A+A *tournament* at GenCon gets a whole room, and a pretty large one at that, all of which are people who enjoy boardgaming with strategic depth - and that's just one boardgame, and the people who play it seriously enough to compete in a tournament *and* travel to GenCon to do so. Sure, not all of them are necessarily interested in fantasy, but you don't need all of them to be interested. Or we could talk about the success of Battlelore, various LotR strategic boardgames, etc...

Yeah, but do you know what stratigic depth boardgame players are? A niche group. Sure there is a lot of action at GenCon. But that is like saying that the Amish aren't a small religion because the Amish churches are allways full.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Warhammer is popular enough that GW runs stores in major cities dedicated solely to Warhammer.

Mostly only in the UK. Stores in other European countries constantly close. Warhammer is also getting more and more expensive. They tend to increase prices fairly often. (I personally think because they need more and more money to keep the business afloat). And warhammer, and most miniature painting and combat games do have a niche appeal. It is also the only business to be able to do this. Which makes for a bad comparison. Never compare the best game or business with the normal businesses. That makes a crooked comparison. All the other games businesses who tried to create dedicated stores have failed.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Clearly you've never been to a gaming convention.

Ad hominem, and not relevant.

A gaming convention is a gathering place of very hardcore gamers. Just like Moss Eisley is a hive of scum and villany. GenCon is a hive of hardcore and geeky gamers. Both niche.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Not sure about adventure games - you'd have to define the genre =p. Because I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to in this day and age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_games

You know, infocom, SCUMM etc stuff. No recent big hits there. Sure some resurrections of old games. (Yeahh... a Monkey Island remake... yawn...)

But we are getting a bit offtopic. I think the main problem is that my definition of niche is a bit broader than yours.

But can Dom3 get more players, sure, a lot can be fixed. (Just compare it to Dwarf Fortress, a game which could be vastly improved by upgrading the UI. (See: Goblin Camp) getting a lot more players (and donations)).

But could it ever appeal to a large group of players like a game like Diablo or Halo does. I don't think so. To niche appeal.

[Knai]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

But that is the whole definition of a niche game. Only a select group of people play it. It has little appeal to women, young 14 year olds etc. So it is a niche game! Of you want it to get out of the niche, you must convince other types of people to play. This was the main point of the discussion. Is Dom3/TBS niche or not? If only a select group of males plays it, it is a niche game.

No, few of them find it and purchase it. That is very different from appeal, as there is a huge difference between the group of people who would like the game if you put it in front of them and had them play it, and the people who would find and purchase it. Locally, the median age of Dominions 3 players is probably around 13.

[13lackGu4rd]

it is a niche game simply because it is created by a very niche company: Illwinter, and published by another niche company: Shrapnel. if Dominions3 was created and published by a large company such as Sid Meier's(Civilization series), EA(well, you all know them...), Blizzard, Westwood Studios(C&C series, Red Alert, etc), etc than Dominions3 wouldn't have been a niche game.

[Soyweiser]

More reasons:

- It is 'Original' fantasy. No easily recognizable fantasy stereotypes. (Such as elves, dwarves, orcs etc).
- You don't fight your own battles, you just give orders.

[Doo]

Its niche because it comes with a sticker on the box...

Warning: Contains Serious Micromanagement

Brain requirements:

If you go to the shops and forget what you intended to buy, purchase a chocolate bar and upon returning home remember what you were supposed to get, then it is advised not to play. Upgrade your cerebellum first.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by Doo

If you go to the shops and forget what you intended to buy, purchase a chocolate bar and upon returning home remember what you were supposed to get, then it is advised not to play. Upgrade your cerebellum first.

I'm just off to bin my CD. See you guys later.

[Tim Brooks]

Why is it niche?

- Turn based strategy is niche. Very hard to get a AAA publisher for. (Yeah, I know it is a circle definition, it is niche because the big boys say it is niche). There are very few exceptions, civilization, and some handheld tbs games. And only civ has some depth.
- It has a humongous learning curve. As almost all tbs games have. This makes it hard to pick up and play. Which makes it niche.
- Comparing it to Civ isn't totally fair. Civ is the exception to the rule. You should compare it to other AAA tbs games. Ow wait... these don't really exist... why would that be?
- Would the 14 year old the current halo/gears of war crowd play Dom3? Or women? Would your mom play it? For most of these it would be No. So that makes it kinda niche.

Soyweiser, you got it right. Well done. I started reading this thread last night (started at post #90 so haven't read the whole thread) and thought this morning I might jump in here and post, because so many people posting here have it all wrong. But your post is right on. The two biggest reasons that Dominions 3 is a niche game and these are pretty equal: 1. the learning curve and 2. the graphics.

The whole discussion of pricing is all wrong also. Maybe a post later that explains how and why pricing is as it is would be helpful.

Thanks for contributing.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Tim Brooks

The whole discussion of pricing is all wrong also. Maybe a post later that explains how and why pricing is as it is would be helpful.

Again?
I can search for

"pricing" CD "Tim Brooks"

showing up together and easily find a chain of posts, interviews, bloggings going back for years. Dom3, Dom2, SEIV, various "about Shrapnel Games" articles and why it was created.

OK there might be some changes.
Maybe you can just dig up some of the old ones and update it.

Wow, Ive been around too long.

[HoneyBadger]

There are things about Dom3 that make it great, that are tradeoffs which naturally reduce the player base (graphics, the learning curve, historical mythology instead of generic fantasy), and then there are things that could be polished (the AI, lack of a single player campaign, the UI, Windows integration, more/less varied music and "smoother" sound (more music to combat repetitiveness, a thorough revising of the sounds in the game to remove any "screeching elephants", etc.), the game manual, balance and more regular "updating" of older Nations), which would appeal to both the current fanbase, and bring in new players, at the same time.

All of these things would take time, but some of them could be done without monetary cost, or attention from the Devs:

While the AI, the UI, and the Windows incompatibility are basically beyond the ability for anyone but the Devs to directly improve, the rest probably wouldn't be impossible for the existing player base to atleast improve, if not completely fix.

A very good map with a lot of attention given to extensive background "flavor" and documentation...well, it won't replace a "proper" campaign, but it might go a long ways towards filling the gap. Done well, though, it could go a long way towards increasing the "roleplaying" aspects of the game, and add some semi-canon, which, if interesting enough, might draw some customers in on it's own merits.

The cost: A huge amount of time and talent, and some consideration towards both an amicable "vanilla" scenario, and towards how even to go about creating such a thing. Also, probably the equivalent of writing atleast one historical fantasy novel...or series...and enough research to choke a Great Sage.

Music's been discussed before, and sounds have already been improved by modders. It would be nice if we could get together some kind of "Forum's Choice" music soundtrack for each existing Nation, drawn from free open sources without legal strings. There's quite a lot of sources for exactly this kind of thing, online. Not only pieces of music, but also sounds. There's even a limited amount of modern music, distributed as free, unlicensed music.

The cost: Time, probably from several individuals, in order for proper perspective and scope, and still more time, to assure that the pieces selected are without legal strings.

The game manual can-and from what I've seen, probably should be-rewritten by (old) players, for (new) players. The better such a thing was written, the more it should (slightly) reduce the learning-curve.

That's not a criticism of the original manual, it's simply a product of years of post-Gold research, and updates to the game. The ability to edit and expand the existing manual to clear up confusion, and correct mistakes/fill in gaps, would be useful, but if a manual needed to be rewritten from the beginning for legal reasons, that would also be possible.

The finished product could then be accessed by PDF or what have you, and downloaded/printed, without publishing costs. This could be separate from, and parallel to, Wiki efforts, since some people like having the information in their physical hand, while others prefer having it at their digital fingertips, via the web/wiki.

The cost: Again, lots of time, good writing/editing skills, more research (I think the manual could be made more "readable" and interesting, and we wouldn't be handcuffed to a page-count, since this would be a PDF), and either permission from Shrapnel Games and Illwinter, or a separate website and a complete rewrite.
A downloaded manual can easily be handed to a friend, who might then read it, and decide to give the game a chance. That could bring in a few customers, here and there.

As per balance: Some Nations are more powerful than others. That's not a bad thing, by itself, and doesn't always need to be excised. That does not mean that the Nations we have can't be better balanced against each other, without making them all the same. This could (and in my opinion, should) be a much larger focus than it currently is, compared to the development of new original Nations. For one thing, the better the existing Nations worked against each other, the more fun it would be to create new Nations to compete with them, and compare them to.

For those who consider the Nations that come with the game to be sacrosanct: As far as I know, none of them are hardcoded into the game, all of them are fully modifiable, and Kristoffer himself (who's admitted he doesn't always fully grasp balancing issues) has modded his own Nations in the past, to make them more playable and/or interesting (Recently, Hinnom and Jomon).

As for making Nations "all the same", this ofcourse isn't a goal, but it has some limited potential. For instance, niefel giants, elephants, dragons, etc. all lack gluttony. If that single factor were made homogenous across all 50+ Nations, it would affect balance enormously, and in many cases for the better.

Units with abilities that can be considered common, and very useful, like assassins, scouts, sailors, and banner units, could be made more commonplace across the board, while still much more expensive and rare for some Nations than others, increasing strategic options and flexibility, especially for weaker Nations, while not destroying balance.

New abilities, such as "Shattered Soul" could be incorporated into existing Nations that were simply created long before the ability was coded. New Heroes/Multiheroes, Summons, and Pretenders could be added, to make existing Nations play in new ways.

There's no reason that independent units need be generically bland. Great citystates, ancient warrior-orders, mysterious ruins (and their occupants) assassin cults, and crumbling empires might exist in many lands where Pretenders simply haven't arisen, and might be interested in getting behind a likely Power.

Independents could be more thoroughly and interestingly developed, in terms of flavour, while removing the most generic independent units that have little usefulness, giving the AI (and the players as well) a small break in the process. This could likely be done more easily than the creation of a new Nation, since consideration of balance and pixel art would be less burdensome.

Making each Nation in the game as balanced as possible, while adding new interest to old ideas, could be expected to net atleast a few new players. The cost: Lots of time, again. Help, if possible, from people who understand balance. Much less graphic intensity than creating new Nations (which should appeal to some people on the Forums).

Dom3 may always remain a "niche game", but it can be made broader simply by removing it's real weaknesses, without compromising it's strengths, even the quirky ones that might be considered "faults" in the eyes of some.

Some of those weaknesses (not all, but some) can be repaired by the "niche players" who love it, despite them. And, in the process, make the game more successful, which we can all be proud of.