what about the future?

[Squirrelloid]

I'm not sure why everyone is so convinced a game like dom3 needs to be a niche game. Admittedly, it doesn't follow the *current* trends in *computer* games (which seems to be going more and more in the overly clicky direction) - although the Civ series remains tremendously successful and arguably Dom3 is, like MoM, Civ-with-magic.

But it also appeals to other types of gamers (such as Warhammer players or Avalon Hill boardgame players). Surely many of these people own computers and might even be tempted to play a computer game that appeals to their style of gameplay.

If dom3 got half the advertising Civ IV had gotten, it could have been a big hit. Ok, it would probably have wanted to actually rework the base code and improve the AI for that kind of advertising effort. But still, turn-based strategy is hardly a dead genre, or even an unpopular one. There's nothing niche about it.

And in a world where Lord of the Rings had 3 blockbuster movies, Harry Potter is looking to go the distance with all 7 (?) books as movies, and who knows how many other major fantasy motion pictures coming out, to pretend that the game being fantasy would limit its appeal is ridiculous. One of the most popular Civ IV mods was a fantasy mod (FfH2).

So why is this necessarily a niche game?

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

So why is this necessarily a niche game?

Why is it niche?

- Turn based strategy is niche. Very hard to get a AAA publisher for. (Yeah, I know it is a circle definition, it is niche because the big boys say it is niche). There are very few exceptions, civilization, and some handheld tbs games. And only civ has some depth.
- It has a humongous learning curve. As almost all tbs games have. This makes it hard to pick up and play. Which makes it niche.
- Comparing it to Civ isn't totally fair. Civ is the exception to the rule. You should compare it to other AAA tbs games. Ow wait... these don't really exist... why would that be?
- Would the 14 year old the current halo/gears of war crowd play Dom3? Or women? Would your mom play it? For most of these it would be No. So that makes it kinda niche.

Nobody said that fantasy made it a niche game. I think it is the other way around.

And Warhammer and Avalon hill games are also niche. They appeal to a very specific set of people. And this group isn't that large you know.

Just compare tbs games with depth to adventure games. Both have great potential. But remain niche.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

If dom3 got half the advertising Civ IV had gotten ...

And if the GUI had been fixed, the graphics polished, the micro fixed, the AI better, A single player campaign included etc...

13lackGu4rd, if a AAA publisher would have developed the game they would have thrown a lot of the depth of the game out of it. They are looking to reach a max amount of players. (So the game is less 'nichey'). So sure, it wouldn't be a niche game if it was developed by Blizzard for example. But it also wouldn't be Dom3.

But I agree, it is niche because it has a niche developer. But that is what makes Dom3, Dom3.

Edit: Just fyi, but I think hardcore gamers have become a niche.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Why is it niche?

- Turn based strategy is niche. Very hard to get a AAA publisher for. (Yeah, I know it is a circle definition, it is niche because the big boys say it is niche). There are very few exceptions, civilization, and some handheld tbs games. And only civ has some depth.

And yet one of the premier CivIV mods was a fantasy mod. There's clearly demand for a 'fantasy Civ' game. I don't think it would be that hard to get a large publisher for one (so long as you had developers willing to actually put the effort in to turn out a first rate product).

- It has a humongous learning curve. As almost all tbs games have. This makes it hard to pick up and play. Which makes it niche.

This is what a tutorial game would be for. No, not something in the manual on paper, a scenario that walked you through playing the first 20 turns or so with pop-ups and scripted events.

Actually, thats the first thing Dom3 would need done to it to be mass-marketable: have hooks in the code to allow scripted events.

- Comparing it to Civ isn't totally fair. Civ is the exception to the rule. You should compare it to other AAA tbs games. Ow wait... these don't really exist... why would that be?

Master of Magic was also tremendously successful. Master of Orion was tremendously successful (1+2, 3 was an abomination and failed not because it was turn based, but because it was a poorly composed set of 'features'). Panzer General was hugely successful, and that franchise is still alive and well (and still turn-based!). Combat Mission was quite successful and spawned two sequels (all 3 within the last decade). Saying TBS is dead seems to show a lack of knowledge.

I can't comment on the success of Elemental (although it seems to have been released as a beta...), but its a fantasy civ game that just got released.

- Would the 14 year old the current halo/gears of war crowd play Dom3? Or women? Would your mom play it? For most of these it would be No. So that makes it kinda niche.

There are women who play dom3. At least 3 of them. If the IRC population is any indication, women make up somewhere on the order of 3-5% of the dom3 player-base. Which for a conflict-driven game is probably pretty good.

My mom wouldn't know how to use a computer game, much less have a desire to play one. The over 60 computer game market is *really* niche.

Why are we trying to compete with the FPS crowd? Those aren't the competition. We should be trying to convince all the people playing FfH2 in Civ4 that what they really want to be doing is playing a TBS game that was *written as fantasy*. And we want to convince the board and war gamers that they could spend some time playing a computer game that has as much depth as the board/war game they like playing. That's your market. Its actually a pretty large market.

Seriously, do you know how many people play Axis and Allies? A lot. The A+A *tournament* at GenCon gets a whole room, and a pretty large one at that, all of which are people who enjoy boardgaming with strategic depth - and that's just one boardgame, and the people who play it seriously enough to compete in a tournament *and* travel to GenCon to do so. Sure, not all of them are necessarily interested in fantasy, but you don't need all of them to be interested. Or we could talk about the success of Battlelore, various LotR strategic boardgames, etc...

Nobody said that fantasy made it a niche game. I think it is the other way around.

And Warhammer and Avalon hill games are also niche. They appeal to a very specific set of people. And this group isn't that large you know.

Warhammer is popular enough that GW runs stores in major cities dedicated solely to Warhammer. Avalon Hill (now defunct of course) produced Axis and Allies, probably the most successful war game ever made after Chess. This group is huge. Clearly you've never been to a gaming convention.

Just compare tbs games with depth to adventure games. Both have great potential. But remain niche.

Already proven TBS is not that niche, see above. Not sure about adventure games - you'd have to define the genre =p. Because I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to in this day and age.

--------
Now, dom3 would certainly need some work if it wasn't going to be niche. But its work that shouldve been done anyway.

I do totally disagree that you need to genericize the fantasy elements, btw. FfH2 has plenty of interesting factions which aren't generic (it has some that are generic, which is unfortunate, but the factions that were included are what the creator chose to include, not what was demanded by the fanbase.) If you offer an even vaguely compelling fantasy world the fanbase will accept it as is.

I mean, hell, you could see Dom3 as just renaming 'generic' fantasy elements into other things, which is so common in fantasy literature these days its a trope unto itself. (Now, dom3 is using the original names, but if someone only knows 'elf' and 'dwarf', they'll see them as renames). I mean, 'sidhe' are elves. Svartalfar are dwarves. And anyone with half a brain can see that. To pretend dom3 doesn't have 'elves and dwarves' is to horribly delude oneself.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I don't think it would be that hard to get a large publisher for one.

"Publishers run a mile from anything with turn-based mechanics - it is regarded as too niche." - Julian Gollop Creator of X-Com. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...p#comment61000

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

This is what a tutorial game would be for. No, not something in the manual on paper, a scenario that walked you through playing the first 20 turns or so with pop-ups and scripted events.

Dom3 is a bit to complex to explain just in the tutorial. (Which Dom3 has actually).

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Master of Magic was also tremendously successful. Master of Orion was tremendously successful (1+2, 3 was an abomination and failed not because it was turn based, but because it was a poorly composed set of 'features'). Panzer General was hugely successful, and that franchise is still alive and well (and still turn-based!). Combat Mission was quite successful and spawned two sequels (all 3 within the last decade). Saying TBS is dead seems to show a lack of knowledge.

Master of Magic - 1994
MOO - 1993, 2 - 1996
Both not the best examples. I'm talking about the current market here.
Combat mission I never heard of before. So I don't know how popular it is. And isn't doing that good (according to 5 minutes of wiki searching: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...orce#Reception).
Yeah, panzer general is doing good. (The fact that you yourself mention that the whole series is still turn based, as if it is an accomplishment is a clear sign.)

When I said other AAA games, I meant other current AAA games. There aren't that many left. Sure there used to be big AAA games, but the gaming world has moved on. TBS has become a nice in which only a small amount of big titles can survive. (Currently only CIV). And most of them aren't innovative anymore. HOMM? Just play HOMM3, it is the best one of the series.

The main point remains that the market has little room for a lot of big AAA TBS games. Only a few of the very large amount that used to be created remain.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

There are women who play dom3. At least 3 of them.

*Laughs* ...

But that is the whole definition of a niche game. Only a select group of people play it. It has little appeal to women, young 14 year olds etc. So it is a niche game! Of you want it to get out of the niche, you must convince other types of people to play. This was the main point of the discussion. Is Dom3/TBS niche or not? If only a select group of males plays it, it is a niche game.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Seriously, do you know how many people play Axis and Allies? A lot. The A+A *tournament* at GenCon gets a whole room, and a pretty large one at that, all of which are people who enjoy boardgaming with strategic depth - and that's just one boardgame, and the people who play it seriously enough to compete in a tournament *and* travel to GenCon to do so. Sure, not all of them are necessarily interested in fantasy, but you don't need all of them to be interested. Or we could talk about the success of Battlelore, various LotR strategic boardgames, etc...

Yeah, but do you know what stratigic depth boardgame players are? A niche group. Sure there is a lot of action at GenCon. But that is like saying that the Amish aren't a small religion because the Amish churches are allways full.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Warhammer is popular enough that GW runs stores in major cities dedicated solely to Warhammer.

Mostly only in the UK. Stores in other European countries constantly close. Warhammer is also getting more and more expensive. They tend to increase prices fairly often. (I personally think because they need more and more money to keep the business afloat). And warhammer, and most miniature painting and combat games do have a niche appeal. It is also the only business to be able to do this. Which makes for a bad comparison. Never compare the best game or business with the normal businesses. That makes a crooked comparison. All the other games businesses who tried to create dedicated stores have failed.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Clearly you've never been to a gaming convention.

Ad hominem, and not relevant.

A gaming convention is a gathering place of very hardcore gamers. Just like Moss Eisley is a hive of scum and villany. GenCon is a hive of hardcore and geeky gamers. Both niche.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Not sure about adventure games - you'd have to define the genre =p. Because I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to in this day and age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_games

You know, infocom, SCUMM etc stuff. No recent big hits there. Sure some resurrections of old games. (Yeahh... a Monkey Island remake... yawn...)

But we are getting a bit offtopic. I think the main problem is that my definition of niche is a bit broader than yours.

But can Dom3 get more players, sure, a lot can be fixed. (Just compare it to Dwarf Fortress, a game which could be vastly improved by upgrading the UI. (See: Goblin Camp) getting a lot more players (and donations)).

But could it ever appeal to a large group of players like a game like Diablo or Halo does. I don't think so. To niche appeal.

[Knai]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

But that is the whole definition of a niche game. Only a select group of people play it. It has little appeal to women, young 14 year olds etc. So it is a niche game! Of you want it to get out of the niche, you must convince other types of people to play. This was the main point of the discussion. Is Dom3/TBS niche or not? If only a select group of males plays it, it is a niche game.

No, few of them find it and purchase it. That is very different from appeal, as there is a huge difference between the group of people who would like the game if you put it in front of them and had them play it, and the people who would find and purchase it. Locally, the median age of Dominions 3 players is probably around 13.