what about the future?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

But no I think that the cost of outsourcing limited pressings has the cost of Dom3 fairly frozen.

.... what?

Cost of the disc: <10 cents. Ok, its probably ~1 cent (a disc is a disc, they can buy in bulk and use them for multiple different titles) but we might assume they don't order enough discs total to get quite that good a price. But *I* can buy writeable discs for <10 cents, so a game publisher certainly can.

Which leaves the manual, which honestly, they could just put the pdf on the disc and reduce their materials cost/unit to the cost of the disc. However, the manual itself can't cost them more than a few bucks to print.

Most of a cost for a game is to account for development time. After a while (usually a year or less for computer games) the price starts dropping because the publisher understands that if more units move, then they'll see more total income and thus more profits, since the development cost/unit is not a fixed amount. (Rather, its a total that needs to be made up by all sales). Basic economics teaches us that reducing price increases sales.

That dom3's price hasn't moved is pure stupidity on Shrapnel's part.

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Re: "Dom 4". Now, IANAL, but, at least in the US, game mechanics aren't copyrightable or patentable. The description of the mechanics (in the manual or game help) is copyrightable, but not the mechanics themselves. So if someone wanted to make a Dominions 3 clone, they very well could. Of course, the creative content that is original to Dom3 is all copyrightable, so that couldn't be reproduced, but since much of the source material is mythological, factions derived from the same source material are perfectly permissible.

Of course, you wouldn't even want to use Dom3's exact mechanics, since that's where a lot of the problems are. So what you end up with is a game that's inspired by Dom3. What you lose is the factions that have the most creative work put into them - Abysia and Agartha (not the names, but the nature of the factions) for example. Other factions are pretty much straight up conversions of myth to faction, so while there would be changes, a Vanir inspired faction would still be recognizably Vanheim for example. And various gradations in-between.

The magic system's divisions are, for the most part, stolen straight from D+D (1st/2nd ed. AD+D specifically), so that's not a problem. The gem spending mechanic seems to be derivative of MoM in form (which would be the only arguably 'creative' aspect - function being the mechanic itself which is not copyrightable). The actual spells would need changing in many cases (although 'fireball' is certainly not intellectual property, some of them certainly are).

Not that Dom3 is without legal problems of its own... (Illithids and Aboleths are WotC's intellectual property, and used without permission afaict.)

Now, obviously it couldn't be *called* dom4...

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Re: "Dom 4". Now, IANAL, but, at least in the US, game mechanics aren't copyrightable or patentable. The description of the mechanics (in the manual or game help) is copyrightable, but not the mechanics themselves. So if someone wanted to make a Dominions 3 clone, they very well could. Of course, the creative content that is original to Dom3 is all copyrightable, so that couldn't be reproduced, but since much of the source material is mythological, factions derived from the same source material are perfectly permissible.

Of course, you wouldn't even want to use Dom3's exact mechanics, since that's where a lot of the problems are. So what you end up with is a game that's inspired by Dom3. What you lose is the factions that have the most creative work put into them - Abysia and Agartha (not the names, but the nature of the factions) for example.

Yes, I've got to think that would be the point of purchasing the rights to Dominions, since it is always mentioned that the code will be rewritten. But I wonder how long it would be before TNN would be changed to elves, Ulm to dwarves, etc. I like traditional fantasy but one of the things I like about Dominions is that it takes a different approach. It seems to me you could make a good argument that you'd sell more copies if you changed nations to the archetypes most people would expect. And while that argument might not do much to sway IW (something I've always liked about them) I would expect for most developers that would, understandably, be a big factor. In short, I wonder if Dominions would retain its spirit with IW out of the picture.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

The magic system's divisions are, for the most part, stolen straight from D+D (1st/2nd ed. AD+D specifically), so that's not a problem. The gem spending mechanic seems to be derivative of MoM in form (which would be the only arguably 'creative' aspect - function being the mechanic itself which is not copyrightable).

I recall reading that Ars Magica, an RPG with a wonderfully realized medieval setting, was an influence on the magic system.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Valerius

It seems to me you could make a good argument that you'd sell more copies if you changed nations to the archetypes most people would expect.

Buying the IP, and then throwing it out. Now that would be a design mistake. **** the code, the IP from dominions is worth the money. (With IP, I mean the backstory of the nations, the different nations themselves, the different sites, the magic system (spell names and effects), the images etc).

And why? Because with the IP comes a community of fans. (Yippy, that is you and me!).

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Buying the IP, and then throwing it out. Now that would be a design mistake. **** the code, the IP from dominions is worth the money. (With IP, I mean the backstory of the nations, the different nations themselves, the different sites, the magic system (spell names and effects), the images etc).

And why? Because with the IP comes a community of fans. (Yippy, that is you and me!).

I totally agree. Dominions is the fun-time project of one creative programmer, and one creative teacher of ReligioMythos. I think anyone would be hard stretched to pick it up and expand it without falling back on old standards that we have all seen 100's of times in other games.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Buying the IP, and then throwing it out. Now that would be a design mistake. **** the code, the IP from dominions is worth the money. (With IP, I mean the backstory of the nations, the different nations themselves, the different sites, the magic system (spell names and effects), the images etc).

And why? Because with the IP comes a community of fans. (Yippy, that is you and me!).

It doesn't seem a stretch to me to imagine someone buying the IP with the intention of staying true to the game but then asking how to expand beyond a loyal, but niche, audience. Perhaps a few changes here and there to the nations might give a broader audience something they can immediately recognize and relate to. And what about that overly complex magic system - how about if that is trimmed down to make it more accessible. And if those changes succeeded in gaining them more sales than they lost from alienated players of D3 then it would make sense.

This is pure speculation of course and it's possible this wouldn't happen but think about various game franchises and how some installments of those franchises are viewed negatively. Perhaps because of changes in game mechanics, or UI, or the intangible "feel" of the game. I might be more surprised if a new version of Dominions by a different developer maintained the spirit of the game than if it didn't.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Valerius

This is pure speculation of course and it's possible this wouldn't happen but think about various game franchises and how some installments of those franchises are viewed negatively. Perhaps because of changes in game mechanics, or UI, or the intangible "feel" of the game. I might be more surprised if a new version of Dominions by a different developer maintained the spirit of the game than if it didn't.

A marketing move would be to
A) simplify it for the masses
B) make it a Windows game which would automatically fix lots of ui complaints
C) make it 3D graphics and upgrade the sound

Malfador would be a good example. His low-graphics high strategy game of Space Empires IV on Shrapnel became a hi-res candied shelfware SEV thru Strategy First. And then became a stripped down FaceBook app game.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

His low-graphics high strategy game of Space Empires IV on Shrapnel became a hi-res candied shelfware SEV thru Strategy First.

This actually made it a lot harder to play at my machine. Somehow the 3d-stuff gave me horrible frame rates, didn't work on my multi core machine etc. Eventually I just gave up...

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

This actually made it a lot harder to play at my machine. Somehow the 3d-stuff gave me horrible frame rates, didn't work on my multi core machine etc. Eventually I just gave up...

I wasnt thrilled either. The game ended up in sales bins, and the modding community never did catch up to what SEIV had. I own it but I still play SEIV and have deleted SEV from my machines.

It was also rather a setup. Malfador is beta testing his next game called World Supremacy and will be offering it thru Shrapnel Games Inc

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Cost of the disc: <10 cents. Ok, its probably ~1 cent (a disc is a disc, they can buy in bulk and use them for multiple different titles) but we might assume they don't order enough discs total to get quite that good a price. But *I* can buy writeable discs for <10 cents, so a game publisher certainly can.
...
That dom3's price hasn't moved is pure stupidity on Shrapnel's part.

I think professional discs are a bit more expensive. Iirc you need to make a master disc, and make professional copies from that one. For both you need specialized equipment. Which tend to be expensive. Sure the costs of one disc is cheap. But the whole setup tends to have large costs up front. Sure, after a certain amound of games sold you get the expense back. But still.

(And lets not forget that when buying a game you normally not only pay for the physical disk, you also pay for development, tech support, shipping, housing, websites, shrapnel also wants to eat, etc). People tend to forget these costs, which usually amount to a lot.

And while I personally think 50$ is still a bit much. I doubt more sales would be made if the price is lower. (I think the specials do improve sales, but that has to do with buyers psychology). Dom3 isn't a real impulse buy kind of game. It is a niche game, those tend to be more expensive. (And tend to draw a more 'select' crowd).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

I think professional discs are a bit more expensive. Iirc you need to make a master disc, and make professional copies from that one. For both you need specialized equipment. Which tend to be expensive. Sure the costs of one disc is cheap. But the whole setup tends to have large costs up front. Sure, after a certain amound of games sold you get the expense back. But still.

I'll note that large capital investments like that are tax deductible for corporations.

Also, Dom3 is not the only game Shrapnel produces, and should not be expected to make up the cost of said equipment on its own. Realistically, the cost of said equipment per disc sold across all their games is probably less than a dollar, but I can't swear to that one.

Its certainly not a material cost for the game. Its a capital investment, and is accounted differently.

(And lets not forget that when buying a game you normally not only pay for the physical disk, you also pay for development, tech support, shipping, housing, websites, shrapnel also wants to eat, etc). People tend to forget these costs, which usually amount to a lot.

I believe that shipping is paid for separately from that price tag =p

They shouldn't need to do that much warehousing just for Dom3, so storage costs are presumably low, especially on a per unit basis.

They run a single website which accomodates all their games. Like capital investments, its not dom3's job to pay for that on its own, and the actual cost per disc shipped is probably under a dollar.

Actually, most of these things are kind of like capital investments in that its not dom3's job to pay for all of it. (Except development, which I already talked about at length, and that should have been paid off already). I agree these are legitimate expenses. Selling an old game at $50 does not help pay for these things. No sale is no money made at all.

And while I personally think 50$ is still a bit much. I doubt more sales would be made if the price is lower. (I think the specials do improve sales, but that has to do with buyers psychology). Dom3 isn't a real impulse buy kind of game. It is a niche game, those tend to be more expensive. (And tend to draw a more 'select' crowd).

I might argue that dominions3 is such a niche game because the price is so high. I mean, dom3 has a lot of boardgame and wargame type appeal. There are (at least) millions of boardgamers and hundreds of thousands of wargamers out there. The niche doesn't have to be as small as it is. Part of this is probably a failure of advertising (or lack thereof). But part of this is almost certainly the large price tag on an old game - why pay $50 for dom3 when you could pay about the same for something brand new with killer graphics? At $20/unit you still see something like $18 gross profits (price - material cost) which can go towards salaries, paying off capital investments, etc... And you'll probably move a lot more units. For every person who buys it at $50, there's probably 10 who would try it at $15-20. And since the only real cost per unit is the materials cost, well, you do the math.