spob34

[DRG]

The Italian army didn't evaporate with the surrender, they nominaly changed sides and that's why there is infantry and artillery. As time passes more and more allied equipment is added but the historic long campaign we ended with the surrender in 1943. As noted you can play all the what if's you like with the generated campaign. The reason there are various end dates to the armoured formations is because some contiuned in operation a bit longer than others

The long campaign issue regarding the start date is a minor bug that anyone can avoid simply by not setting one up that way, but we WILL fix it so that this will not be an issue for anyone when we issue the next upgrade to the game.

Don

[Arralen]

Problem is:
There are (nearly)no working armour formations after 9/'43!!
E.g. in June/'45 all that is available are some flame thrower tank squad and platoon (IIRC) - looks like the old vehicles/formations are phased out in '43, and the new formations only start in '46.
So if you want to "switch sides", and play Italians vs. Germans in late'44, early '45, or Italians vs. Comminist Menace in '45/'46, you'll have no armour at all !!

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Arralen

Problem is:
There are (nearly)no working armour formations after 9/'43!!
E.g. in June/'45 all that is available are some flame thrower tank squad and platoon (IIRC) - looks like the old vehicles/formations are phased out in '43, and the new formations only start in '46.
So if you want to "switch sides", and play Italians vs. Germans in late'44, early '45, or Italians vs. Comminist Menace in '45/'46, you'll have no armour at all !!

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks

If you find info the contrary do let us know but what we have in the OOB now is what reseach gave us years ago and has been like that since the games OOB's were first re-written. IE, the italian army did not contain armour formations post surrender until the war ended and was strictly an infantry army. Like it or not that's the way it was and unless someone can come up with hard data that the italians operated armoured units post surrender that's the way it was going to stay. The guy who worked on that OOB was and Italiophile..... if there were armoured units post surrender, he would have included them

From the game guide historical game notes

Post-surrender (1943-1945) forces are included also. The OOB has had the RSI (Republica Sociale Italiana) split off into their own OOB so the units included after the armistice in September 1943 include the co-belligerant forces that fought for the allies and against the Germans for the period approx September 1943 - March 1944 mostly with Italian weapons. Then, until September 1944 it became known as "Corpo italiano di liberazione" (C.I.L) and British equipment starts to become more prevalent. From September 1944 until the end of 1945 the Italian army was know as "Gruppi di combattimento" In December of 1943, the liberated Italian army was fighting alongside their new allies against the Germans. Monte Lungo, Monte Cassino and the liberation of Rome were some of the many battles in which the Italians participated. Italian partisans also managed to sidetrack over 200,000 Germans due to their resistance. In the beginning of 1944, the 185th Nembo Autonomous Parachute Unit was employed on the Gustav line and was involved in heavy fighting against seasoned German Units. Some of the heavier engagements were at Mainarde, Monte Marrone and Monte San Michele.

It should be noted that immediately after the surrender was a time of chaos. Many Italians just wanted to end the fighting, but the war raged all around them with Italians fighting the Axis, Italians fighting the Allies, and Italians fighting Italians. All through 1944 and until the war ended in Spring of 1945, Italians fought on both sides of some of the most fierce fighting the war would see. From Monte Cassino to the streets of Rome, Genoa and Florence, Italian soldiers fought and died for both sides. The war did not end for Italy when she surrendered.

Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Arralen

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks

I haven't researched the topic in detail, though I might do that someday, but what you find strange is perfectly logical.
At surrender time most of the country had either already fallen into allied hands or quickly fell into german ones as most army units either melted as the command structure collapsed or were quickly shot to pieces by the wermacht.
Only a few units remained intact in area of the south which the allies had not reached, the germans were not in strenght and the local commanders had kept their cool; the king and some generals hd fled there for what they were worth (not much, but that would be a separate thread).
Now, the italian AFVs that did not fall in the pathetic category by the summer 1943 amounted to little more than relatively few assault guns and tank destroyers; we are talking about numbers in tens range for each type, not a whole lot. Of those some were lost in Sicily against the allies ( apparently all the Semovente 90L53 for example) and most or all of the rest were either captured or destroyed by the germans.
I don't have an exact OOB of those units which survived in the South at hand but from what I recall it was an infantry division tasked with coast defense and a mixed bag of other assorted infantry units; while I can't say with 100% certainty that no armor was there even in the unlikely case they had something that did not fall in the useless category there was the little problem that all the tank plants were in german controlled territory, so any long term use would have been problematic.
The italian units which fought alongside the allies were progressively equipped with allied weapons due to logistical considerations, tanks may not have been issued fo a variety of reasons.