Point costs and balance

[Lankinen]

Anyone noticed, that some units are ridiculously overpriced for what they do in the game and some units are ridiculously underpriced.

And, there are some crazy thinds like, the same mil mi-8 in finlands 2011 armylist that has 2 rocket launcher weapons costs 3pt more than the same chopper without any weapons at all. How crazy is this ?

Also, swedish armylist in 2011 has a flak gun, that has point cost 200pts, the same flak gun with radar is 204pts. 4pts for radar, are you kidding me, who would ever pick the one without ?

Why there are almost no anti tank guns sold in 2011, i'm pretty sure that some armies do have them in real life that cannot buy them in winspmbt ?

I'm eager to know what methods are the creators using picking the pts costs for units ?

Some pts are well though for sure, but there are many like those i mentioned.

Also, what use can one have for 300pts APC's. Isn't MBT quite a bit better and almost at the same price ?

Vision 40 is nice for apc but really, 2-300pts

Any one of you there hav good use for those expensive IFV's ?

Is it just my tactics lacking or why am i thinking those only of good pts for the opponent destroying them as easily as 40-50 pts APC's.

I also noticed that MBT's and such does no longer shoot ob planes, and neither do area sam's, i suppose this was changed in some patch because they fly too high to be shot at weapons like that, but why area sam ?

[Marcello]

Why there are almost no anti tank guns sold in 2011, i'm pretty sure that some armies do have them in real life that cannot buy them in winspmbt ?

Russia does still have them in the game, as well as several of its former clients.
As for everybody else, they mostly gave up on that item as soon as recoiless guns and ATGM became available. They simply have too many drawbacks for most applications. The soviets on the other hand thought there still was a,small to be sure, niche for them in their doctrine so they kept building them.

Any one of you there hav good use for those expensive IFV's ?

If you are going against talibans a Puma looks more attractive than a late model Leopard: cheaper, more HE rounds, internal infantry squad, armor still good enough against basic RPG and the same useful perks of the modern MBTs (high FC, TI)...

[DRG]

*IF* I get the time this weekend and *IF* someone else doesn't answer I'll see if I can go through your list of complaints.

HOWEVER, as to "ob planes" and AAMG and "area sams" I can only assume, mainly becasue you offer NO SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, that by "ob planes" you mean drones.

Did you read the release notes in the game guide ? Had you done so you would have read this for the last release

7/ Non FLAK units in the delay or defence will not fire AAA weapons except if the fighter bombers are very close in the first 12 or so turns . This stops " recce by spotting AAMG fires "', if you put strike planes in as a pre-game deployment to find the enemy layout. Those units with AAMGs WILL fire at paratrooper carrying aircraft and gliders normally, however.

and

15 / SAMS are now filtered on warhead size versus spotter planes and UAVS. Large SAMs will no longer needlessly engage small spotter aircraft or UAV's. These will be left for the smaller SAMs

so for area sams it comes down to WHICH SAM's ( you don't say ) and what is the minimum range ( this assumes they may be small enough to bother engaging drones.) We've already had this question related to s-300's. Really ??? s-300's against a drone ? Seriously ? The old way was the problem not this change

As to the Swedish AA guns. It's the TI that pushes the cost up. TI pushes the cost of anything it equipts up.

.........and AT guns... right now beleve we issue them in the OOB's to the nations that actually still use them. If you're "pretty sure that some armies do have them in real life " then please provide us with the info on which nations are missing them and we will make the corrections

Don

[Lankinen]

The ob plane problem encurerd when we had a match finland against sweden, the same time i spotted those abnormalities in the point cost with no weapons helicopter and the rocket one. So i guess the pts cost goes with some calculator and the creators are not picking them one by one. That would be quite lots of work, given the number of units and years in the game.

So, sweden has 200pts good area sam, but their inf sam and flak cost something like 300pts. Finland has flaks with radars with 50pts and 70pts, 300pts radar with sweden is 60range and finlands (soviet build?) flak with 70pts has 80 range and they hit almost the same. Map was very wide and we had rules that you may pick 3 ob planes and 2 unarmed helicopters or paradrop carrier plane.

So it turned out that sweden must invest in a large map whole lot of points, like almost 10% of the pts they have to use in the game we had and finnland could take pretty much the same defense with 1% of their points. That's when i first found out those things (as the previous patches i played did not have that problem.) So it made dropping UAV's (ranger uav) a real pain for sweds when playing fin vs swe in 2011 having to invest 300pts a piece for anti UAV equipment and the safe number would be something like 4 to get the needed area in the map and to have extra for the estimated losses for counter battery fire.

I noticed there is some kind of a filter for your units, you could filter the armor and such for the units your troops fire. Why couldnt that area sam's firing uav's problem be solved with it. Just set the needed armor value 1 more than the uav's and the SAM won't shoot it ?

I suppose that doesn't work with sams then.

It's quite a marginal problem, but it still got us starting a new game with no air sorties allowed at all.

So i suppose, the area sam's still fire those non UAV planes.

Isn't b-2 plane a bit inbalanced ?

What anti-aircraft weapons shoot it down.

Raptors seems pretty good too as a SEAD.

Once i had 2 of b-2's with JDAM's and they just dominated and was being shot 0 times in the whole game. Even s-300 did not fire them.

If b-2 is that good in the real life, would it be justified to get the pts cost up ?

Our solution was to ban the whole b-2 plane from our games.

For the IFV thing, isn't a cheap tank, a reserve tank, cs tank or obsolate tank still better than teh IFV ?

BTW i just like the way almost all finnish armoured mobile units have VIRS in 2011.

Also "sissi company", just brutal size 0 unit nightmare.

Anyone had trouble playing against finnish armylist because of massed size 0 and VIRS ?

They can easilly have couple hundred of size 0 units in relatively low cost games

At least, the PGM planes favourite target, a light truck doesn't have a VIRS. That would be too brutal.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Simply put the B-2 is that good as are UAVs in general. And it's not just the platform but the payload your paying for as well. Precision guided weapons aren't cheap though the costs are coming down due to increased production rates the EXCALIBUR 155mm shell is a perfect example of this. The B-2 is said to have the radar cross section of something much smaller a then flock of birds early on (Rumored much less now with newer electronic suite now carried.) and not one has been lost in combat. Same can be said for the UAV that might appear smaller than a bird and operate at 25,000 to 70,000 feet. What brings them down?
Experienced SAM units. So for the privilege to buy and use them you'll pay the price. And we don't penalize countries for their advanced weapons, if we did Germany during WWII would be in big trouble where it was numbers and tactics that ultimatley defeated them, and if your upset about the B-2 wait until what I submit to improve the B-1B and B-52 this year. Technology marches on. I could make the same argument against the ARCHER SPA because of it's immediate real world shoot n scoot n shoot within a game turn capability. So if we get rid of the B-2 so long B-1B, F-22, F-35, J-20, PAK FA etc., though it would free up slot space!?! If your worried about air attack buy a mixed set of advanced anti air units that will gain experience though I understand in a one game setting this is harder. As we say here "You get what you pay for." it applies to the game as well. These are simplified arguments of course.
UAV's:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/zephyr/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...cles-uav-ucav/

B-2:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/

It is worth it for all above to check the "Related Links" as these normally address upgrade issues

Regards,
Pat

[Marcello]

For the IFV thing, isn't a cheap tank, a reserve tank, cs tank or obsolate tank still better than teh IFV ?

The "cheap tank" in general does not carry an infantry squad inside but aside from that there is the little problem that Germany does not have any "cheap tank, a reserve tank, cs tank or obsolate tank" as of now. So the Puma looks attractive.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by Marcello

The "cheap tank" in general does not carry an infantry squad inside but aside from that there is the little problem that Germany does not have any "cheap tank, a reserve tank, cs tank or obsolate tank" as of now. So the Puma looks attractive.

And most modern IFV's can fight pretty much anything that comes around, Autocannon/HMG for anti-grunt/light vehicle work, and ATGM for tanks, don't forget the infantry squad that will help in close terrain.

[Lankinen]

Still not quite fond of those costly IFV's. Maybe i have to test them more, but they have not yet given me a reason to take over cheap apc and having more tanks instead.

Yeah, b-2 is supposed to be good, but what anti air in winspmbt patch 5.5 can shoot it down ?

UAV's are quite easy to shoot down compared to b-2, because many platforms do not even fire for it, pantsyr is this far the only one firing b-2 and it has a change to drop it at least, it has 3 sam's so shooting 6 times with 2-3% accuracy might do the job if one is lucky to hit it.

Is there a better one against b-2 than pantsyr ?

[Marcello]

Still not quite fond of those costly IFV's. Maybe i have to test them more, but they have not yet given me a reason to take over cheap apc and having more tanks instead.

Well, the issue has been debated in real life too. Not everyone was in favor of IFVs but at the end of the day almost everyone adopted it eventually; only the israelis have rejected it AFAIK.

[Suhiir]

My 2 cents : a.k.a. adding oil to the flames...

I've been tempted to brooch this subject for some time but have been resisting due to the feeling that there is no "solution" and bringing it up would do more harm then good.

Unit Class #50 (Air Obs Aircraft)
Examples (default USMC OOB #013)

Unit #251 FO Aircraft (01/46-12/120)
Cost=36 size=2 EW=0 Vision=0

Unit #250 OV-10A Bronco (07/68-12/89)
Cost=73 size=2 EW=1 Vision=20

Unit #253 OV-10D Bronco (01/90-12/120)
Cost=167 size=2 EW=3 Vision=40

Unit #252 OV-1 Mohawk (01/94-12/120)
Cost=177 size=4 EW=4 Vision=40

Unit #254 UAV (01/90-12/120)
Cost=171 size=0 EW=5 Vision=40

Examples (my revised USMC OOB #013)

Unit #251 OE-1 Bird Dog (01/46-12/120)
Cost=36 size=1 EW=0 Vision=0

Unit #250 OV-10A Bronco (08/67-07/93)
Cost=90 size=2 EW=3 Vision=10

Unit #253 OV-10D Bronco (01/79-07/93)
Cost=167 size=2 EW=3 Vision=40

Unit #252 OV-1C Mohawk (01/62-06/68)
Cost=83 size=3 EW=2 Vision=20

Unit #254 RQ-2 Pioneer (01/85-12/102)
Cost=101 size=0 EW=5 Vision=30

Unit #631 RQ-7 Shadow (01/91-12/102)
Cost=191 size=0 EW=7 Vision=40

Unit #869 UAV AAI Shadow (01/103-12/120)
Cost=231 size=0 EW=9 Vision=40

Whole aerial observation is VERY handy in WinSPMBT it's rare for the observation aircraft to survive even one pass once MANPADS start to proliferate in the game (the AI invariably has 2 to 4 times as many as would normally be seen in a force the size fielded). Thus they are rarely worth the scarce "Air" slot or the unit cost.

Solution?
Well, cut the costs by 50% and perhaps make them not cost an "air" slot when purchased.
Better yet, cut AI MANPAD purchase by 50% or more!

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On a related subject it seems Vision 40 adds a blanket 100 points to the cost of any unit. While Thermal Imaging IS very nice ... is it 100 points worth of nice?