Quick question for small arms buffs

[gila]

Given the less recoil,accy, range and still the excellent stopping power of the 5.56m,makes it more effective than AK IMO

[phil74501]

Back in the 80's there was alot of debate in the US about 7.62 vs. 5.56. Most of the old timers preferred the bigger round and the M14 over the M16. The debate in the US about the smaller caliber versus bigger caliber has gone on for decades.

You have to remember that at the time the M16 was adopted the Viet Nam war was starting to heat up. Our brave ARVN allies were much smaller in stature than American soldiers. The Vietnamese soldiers couldn't handle a fully automatic M14. The only other weapons we had to give them were the old M1 Garands and M1/M2 carbines. Both of which were great weapons in their day. But by the early 60's were obsolete. Especially when matched against an AK47.

At about that same time the US Air Force was looking for a new rifle to arm the airmen that guard US air bases. They needed something bigger than a sub machine gun, but smaller than an M14. General Curtis Lemay, the very influential Air Force chief of staff at the time, opted for the M16. IIRC, the story was he was at a party, someone presented him with one, he fired off a few clips, and fell in love with it. The US Army decided that the M16 would be the best option to arm the ARVN troops with. There was also political pressure placed upon the US military to adopt the M16. Thought was that it would be cheaper if everyone used the same weapon, same ammo, same spare parts.

[Suhiir]

As noted the "battle" of 7.62 vs 5.56 has raged on since the AR15/M16 was first developed.
Now another very similar "battle" of the M16A4 vs the M4 carbine rages.

When it comes down to it there is no "best".
Everyone individual their personal favorite/"best" round/weapon.

7.62's generally have better range, individual round stopping power, and weapon durability - at the cost of a larger/heavier weapon, greater recoil thus difficult to control automatic fire (when available at all), and reduced individual ammo load.

The AK47 is/was a fairly good compromise weapon with the advantages of simplicity of operation and durability.

Almost any argument used in the rifle "battle" could also be applied to machine guns.

.50 cal = M14
.30 cal/7.62 = M16
M249 SAW = M4

So is Ma Duce better then the G3 or M240?

[daferg]

I know my guys in Iraq were glad they were not humping a 50 around. I am biased on the M240B because I had two of them and loved them very much. I have only heard stories on the G3 but from what I heard it is a fine weapon.

The Germans of WW2 might have been mean bastards but they made some fine weapons. I wonder why there was never a 50 cal? Granted, they did use the 20mm to their advantage but there was nothing between the 7.92 and 20mm.

[Suhiir]

Actually they did.

The Maschinengewehr 131 was a German 13 mm machine gun developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig and produced from 1940 to 1945. The MG 131 was designed for use at fixed, flexible or turreted, single or twin mountings in Luftwaffe aircraft during World War II.

The Maschinengewehr 151/15 was a 15 mm autocannon produced by Waffenfabrik Mauser starting in 1940. It was in 1941 developed into the 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon which was widely used on many types of German Luftwaffe fighters, fighter bombers, night fighters, ground attack and even bombers as part of or as their main armament during World War II.

[daferg]

I stand corrected. I wonder why they were not commonly mounted on their tanks for air defense. I also wonder why my coax guns are 7.62 and not a 50 cal or larger. I read somewhere that the M1 tank was going to have a larger coax but it was nixed. Thanks for the info on the German machine guns.

[mkr8683]

Amen, Daferg. My driver sunk our MRAP in an irrigation ditch in Baghdad in '08, got it stuck leaning at a 45 degree angle. Commander's truck got stuck trying to pull us out. I told my gunner to get out the 240B and a couple cans of ammo, and we set up a little fighting position. It took the CP till past dark to put together a convoy with a KBR wrecker to get us unstuck. We were smack in the middle of a farm, luckily not a single mortar or sniper. Some Marine Cobras saw us and realized what was going on, I guess, and buzzed around us every now and then for a while and flew off. I realized right then, since for whatever reason I hadn't snapped to it, why we 11Bs carry 240Bs instead of .50s and Mark 19s.

[daferg]

Originally Posted by mkr8683

Amen, Daferg. My driver sunk our MRAP in an irrigation ditch in Baghdad in '08, got it stuck leaning at a 45 degree angle. Commander's truck got stuck trying to pull us out. I told my gunner to get out the 240B and a couple cans of ammo, and we set up a little fighting position. It took the CP till past dark to put together a convoy with a KBR wrecker to get us unstuck. We were smack in the middle of a farm, luckily not a single mortar or sniper. Some Marine Cobras saw us and realized what was going on, I guess, and buzzed around us every now and then for a while and flew off. I realized right then, since for whatever reason I hadn't snapped to it, why we 11Bs carry 240Bs instead of .50s and Mark 19s.

I never knew how much an MRAP weighed until I tried to pull one with my Stryker. I think they weigh nearly 70 tons. Needless to say the tow cables would have broke before I moved it an inch. I was in Taji 08-09 with the 28th ID. A 240B with API ammo is the gift that keeps on giving.

[mkr8683]

I was in Baghdad 05-06 and 07-09, 4ID both times. Made a few trips to Taji in '08, matter of fact that's where we got our MRAPs from. We flew up there on Blackhawks and convoyed back to Liberty in them. Taji was a dump, from what I remember. It was cool seeing the boneyard, though. I wish I'd have taken some pictures. The chow hall was the best one in that whole area. One of my buddies was killed and his driver blinded by shrapnel by a EFP on Senators, coming back from Taji after dropping off the deputy 4ID commander to go eat lunch with an IA general. All because he didn't want to wait for a Blackhawk at the IZ.