Polish OOB 5.5

[DRG]

......and the other thing that REALLY PISSES ME OFF are people who use examples of future units from other OOB's to justify something they think should be in their pet OOB. I AM FED UP WITH THIS CRAP. We added things a few years ago becasue some thought it would be "kewl" to have things still on the drawing board in the game so that players could play the game 10 years in advance and have all these new wonderful toys to play with then as time goes by all these new toys are sitting on the scrap heap and we have to pull them out but one left in some OOB or another that hasn't been scrapped suddenly becomes an excuse to add more crap into the OOB's ( that we will have to pull out later and we end up with ....."Yeah but the GERMAN OOB had this or the RUSSIAN OOB has that"

TOO FRIGGING BAD.

The EFV is GONE. It was GONE the last release. We added it as a "courtesy". It's still in the USMC OOB renationalized JUST IN CASE the project is revived but it DOES NOT SHOW UP IN THE GAME. The Su-47 Berkut is in the Russian OOB and the Altay is in the Turk OOB...... it will probably die as well but I'm leaving that alone but the days of adding upgrades in thinking that it's "enevitable" are over and as the years pass and they don't come about they will be pulled as well but I have MORE THAN ENOUGH to do ATM without making more work for myself.

Shall I pull the F-35's out until we know they are actually being used operationally ?

I just gutted the PT-91's from the Polish OOB becasue someone elses previous guesses about what "might" happen didn't come to pass so why would I put in new guesses ??

Now Suhiir..... I realize you were not asking for anything you were just pointing out what has happened so this was not directed at you per se but as a general venting of frustration on the way things like this go. NOR is it aimed directly at Michal. He just happened to be the last person to bring up " future upgrades ". This particular venting has been building for awhile



Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

NOR is it aimed directly at Michal. He just happened to be the last person to bring up " future upgrades ".

...I wasn't even going to take this (rightful) criticism at my direction - one of my main motives to correct the Polish OOB (and therefore, to appear here), was to remove units, that should have been in the Polish inventory long ago according to the OOB, but aren't, or sci-fi ones

Thanks for clearing this. I only thought, that if we already have 4 or so future PT-91s, and someone made an effort to put them there, it would be reasonable to keep one or two, downgraded to something more probable (with basic armour, better stabilizer, gun and FC)...

As for T-72 - you assume right, they're coming (although not too extensive)

Cheers
Michal

[Pibwl]

Time for T-72

015 T-72 - AAMG should be #17 NSVT (now DShK). Speed 22 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20). Basic model was never a numerous tank in Poland - should have radio code 1.

Soviet basic T-72 has FC 15 (Polish 10) - I don't know if the difference is justified, since basic T-72 hadn't very advanced FC anyway and I haven't heard if it was simplified on machines exported to Warsaw pact. According to Russian monograph by M. Baryatynski, T-72s exported to Poland, Czechoslovakia, GDR "almost didn't differ" from Soviet ones. Those to Arab countries and India had different turret front construction.

016 T-72M - AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Produced and used from 1981 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3 and 5/2010]. In fact available until today (until around 2015 - now 12/99), though from some 1995 it may be "obsolete tank". Speed 21 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20).

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

017 T-72M1 - AAMG should be NSVT. SD should be around 4 (like Russian T-72A - it has 2x6 tubes) (now: 1). It should be available until 2020 (now: 12/96). Speed 25 is much too high (others: 20). Vision should be 20 (30), as in T-72A.

402 T-72M1 - It could be variant with some Pronit Ryś sabot rounds, mentioned in PT-91 post, available from some 1999 until 2020 (now: 1/97-12/100). Comments for AAMG, SD, speed as above. Correct pic is 29257 (now it's PT-91). It has too high ROF 7 (others: 6). Vision 30 might be OK (there were developed new passive sights in Poland...)

403 T-72M1 - further modernized variant with PO-1+ gun - to be removed, or made a hypotetical "wartime" model with better gun. It is unlikely, that T-72M1s will be modernized in Poland in other way, than converting to PT-91.

711-713 T-72M1Z - T-72M1 converted to PT-91 standard. Official (not used in practice) name of this tank is PT-91MA1, and it is commonly regarded just as "PT-91". No difference in game terms - IMO redundant.

Mineclearing tanks:

220 T-72M KMT-6 - used until some 2015 (2020). Ammo should be probably redistributed (30 HE, 14 Heat). AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Speed should be 20(21).

221 T-72M1 KMT-6 - it should be standard model with D81T 75 gun at best, available from 1986 (now: PO-1 gun, 1/97). Ammo distribution, AAMG, speed as above. SD should be around 4 (2). ROF should be 6(7).

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

Yes, we know that. It's why unit 15 has no SD but I will remove it from the M as well


Don

[Pibwl]

...I was reluctant to report this, but Polish T-72M1 have FC 25 (also Slovak, East German, Iraqi and maybe others), while Soviet T-72A and Czech T-72M-1 have 20, what might be more appropriate in fact...

If we want to be overly precise with PT-91, there could be earliest model without TI, vision 30, available from 1995, radio code 1 (some 35 tanks) and basic model with vision 40, available from around 1996.

To end with medium tanks: Leopard 2

Polish Leopards have different turret armour, than Leopard 2A4 in German OOB.

020 Leopard 2A4 - SD should be definitely more (now: 1). German one has SD 2, but it has 16 tubes, so it seems too low.

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile, available from 1/112. There are no pronounced plans to buy such missiles, despite advertising in the Polish press, and if something is going to be bought, new ammunition and modernized FC are more probable... To be removed as for now IMO.

396 Leopard 2+Dozer - there's no sign of using Leopard dozers in Poland (consulted with NFoW forum).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Going deeper:

024 BRDM-2 Malutka2,
033 BRDM-2 Malutka - this should be the same vehicle, firing 9M14P Malutka-P missiles (#155), named "BRDM-2 Malutka", or better "BRDM2 Malutka-P" (vehicle's designation was 9P133). Poland didn't use early 9P122 BRDM-2 with 9M14M Malutka missiles, but it uses Malutka-P from early 70s. It carries 14 missiles (now: 12) according to Polish MoD page and Russian sources (as unit 383 in Russian oob).

There are two units currently, 033 in 1/70-12/104 with wrong armament (ordinary Malutka #145) and vision=0 and 024 in 1/100-12/120 with correct armament and vision=20. One vehicle would be enough IMO, because as far as it is known, they weren't modernized in any way. Besides, in 2000 it was an obsolete system and wouldn't be modernized at that time. Vision=0 is correct (a soldier at one forum wrote, that it was good vehicles, but "blind as a mole" at night). Missiles could be fired and guided at night, but a target had to be noticeable in sights.

I have no precise start date ("early 70s"), but according to an article in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2000 (http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...R/PturR010.htm ), despite it was commissioned in the USSR in 1969, but first 17 were produced only in 1971, and bigger production ran from mid-72. Therefore, a realistic date in Poland would be 1/73.

By the way: unit 384 BRDM-2 MalutkaP in Russian OOB might need change of date at least to 1971 (now: 1/69) and from 10 to 14 missiles (according to a quoted page, 14 was standard, but even 18 missiles could be carried in overload).

One of these Polish units could be replaced with a new unit BRDM-1 Malutka, or just BRDM Malutka (9P110 vehicle) - used in limited number (radio code 1). Details are lacking, but it must have been used from around 1968 until around 1980 (commissioned in the USSR in 1963). Data like unit 382 in Russian oob, but according to a quoted page, it also carried 14 missiles (6 + 8 reloads). A proper icon is 2331 (though it would be worth to erase lines suggesting open hatches in rear part - it had elevating hatch. Here are some photos http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_9p110.htm


025 SU-100 - apparently weren't used in Poland in any significant number. In 1949 there existed only two "pattern vehicles" [Poligon 3/2010]. In 1955, a total number of 51 SU-85 and SU-100 is given, what corresponds with 50 SU-85 and 2 SU-100 in 1949 [same source]. In 1960 there are mentioned only 43 SU-85. Despite Magnuski in his book (from 1984) wrote in general, that 2 were acquired in 1945 and "bigger numbers of SU-100" were bought in late 40s and 50s, but he didn't give any details, and it is doubtful in a view of numbers above, from newer sources. There is no information on further import of SU-100, only of heavy SP-guns and SU-76s. So, it should have radio code 3 at best (if not be removed).

027 JSU-152 - correct name is ISU-152. Extinct from inventory before 1960 [Poligon 3/2010] (say, 1959 - now: 12/65). It didn't typically use Heat ammo - at least half of them should be AP.

029 ASU-85 - according to J. Magnuski, they were used during manoeuvres in 1963 and withdrawn some time before 1983 (say, 12/80 - now: 1/66-12/86). Needs date change of formation 14 as last unit.

For information: gun's designation in ASU-85 was D-70 (it could be changed, since Poland doesn't use D-48 gun in other applications).

030 BRDM-1 Trzmiel - could be named just BRDM Trzmiel (2P27 vehicle). They were withdrawn by 1989 (now: 12/94).

According to Russian sources (among others Shirokorad's article http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...R/PturR003.htm ) they carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries). Proper pic is 29057 - for BRDM-1 Shmel in all countries (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). I've also found correct icon with 3 missiles: 2945 (though it would be worth to erase a rear line, suggesting open hatch - it had two-part hatch, opening to sides, unlike BRDM-1 with Falanga missiles, same for 2946 desert one).

031 BRDM-1 Falanga - should be removed - Poland never used BRDMs with Falanga missiles (unless somebody finds a source). According to Russian sources, there's no sign of their export at all.

032 BRDM-2 Fal.-M1 - should be removed (as 031)

034 BRDM-2 Konkurs (9P148 Konkurs) - used from 1984 only (now: 1/79) [Technika Wojska Polskiego - Polish Military Equipment - semi-official MoD 1998 book]. Rare piece of equipment - radio code should be 1. Correct icon is 2342 or 2324.

According to all Russian sources and Polish MoD page, it carries 15 missiles Konkurs (for all countries). Its weapons is overstated - it should be replaced in the file with standard 9M113 Konkurs (like weapon 166 from Russian oob), instead of 9M113M KonkursM with more penetration (not used in Poland) [same book].

035 MT-LB/82, 036 2S12 SPM - should be removed, with corresponding formations 16, 37, 238 - Poland never used SP-mortars. First such vehicles are planned on Rosomak APC chassis, but don't exist as for now.

037 Krab - as for now, only 2 prototypes and 1 serial vehicle are used. It should be given radio 3 in fact in that period (now: from 1/107). The program has been postponed for years, probably by 2013 there will be 6 more built at last.

038 2S7 Piwonia - more proper name is original 2S7 Pion (in all publications, among others in semi-official Technika Wojska Polskiego. "Piwonia" is a Polish translation of flower name, not used in practice). Used from 1986 until spring of 2006 [Poligon nr 06/2009] (now: 1/87-12/120). Very rare piece of equipment (8 pieces). Crew was 7 (probably for all countries). I don't know if it's good idea, but the crew had RPG-7 and AK rifles as a standard for self-defence.

039 2S1 Gozdzik - they have no AAMG.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

AA systems (beginning):

040 Loara SPAAG - still there exist only 1 or 2 vehicles... very rare, though might be used in combat. Radio code should be 3 - it rather won't be numerous by 2020. It should have some SD (now:0 - it has 12 tubes). Speed is officially given as 60 km/h (now: 23). Date is OK.

041 BTR-40A - there's no evidence, that this variant was used in Poland (not a mention in Magnuski's book, nor a photo of a Polish vehicle). Personally, I'd remove it. At least its availability should be limited to 1955-1979 (BTR-40 were bought in 1955, for sure they weren't used since the 1980s) (now: 1/53-12/105).
Needs change of formations nos 4, 18 - earliest unit should be #042

Speaking of SPAA guns:
415 GAZ-AAMG - there's no sign of such vehicles, nor quadruple Maxims used in Poland. Personally, I'd remove it. Its weapon would be also useless.

It might be replaced with new unit M17 - variant of US M16 MGMC shipped to the USSR. Not a common vehicle, though - some 16 were left after the war. The question is, how long they were combat worthy, and how much ammo they had. I'd say, some 1949, maximum 1952 would be a good ending date. It is known, that they were used until late 50s, but in a pure APC role.
It would need separate formations, with a gap before unit 042.

By the way: #399 ZSU M-16 in the Russian OOB should be in fact renamed M-17, since original M-16s weren't shipped to the USSR.

042 ZSU-57-2 - date 1/59 is OK

043 ZSU-23-4 Szylka - still used, probably until 1/115 at least (now: 12/105) (start 1/68 is OK)

044 SA-8a Gecko - proper name is Osa-AK. It should have 6 missiles (now 4). Used from 1980 only [Polish Military Equipment] until 1/120 (now: 1/76-12/110) (according to other sources, used even from 1981 or 1984). Icon should be 1849 - it was a variant with 6 containers.

045 SA-9 Gaskin - should be named Strzala-1 (or Strela-1 - Soviet name) or 9K31 Strzala-1. Used until some 1997 at best - not present in Polish Military Equipment book from 1998 (now: 12/104).

046 SA-13 Gopher - should be named Strzala-10M (or Soviet name Strela-10M). Used from 1982 [Pol.Mil.Equip.] (1/80) (according to other sources, even from 1988). Should be very rare - only 4 vehicles used. According to Raport 6/2000, they were to be withdrawn in 2000 (now 12/104).

047 SA-2 Guideline - proper name is SA-75 Dwina (or Soviet SA-75 Dvina). Used from 9/1959 - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autor...75wolchow.html (first 2) - more realistic date 1/60 (now 1/57 - their production was only starting in 1957 in USSR).
Needs change of formation 20, as the earliest unit.

048 SA-3 Goa - proper name is S-125 Newa. Introduced in 1969 (1 for training) or 1970 (operational) - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/pzr_s125m.html (now 1/63). Initially twin launchers were used only (until late 1970s).

Quadruple launchers appeared with S-125M Newa, from mid-70s only (probably 1973 - same source) - there should be made two units. Initial twin launchers and quadruple from mid-70s concern all countries - S-125M was commissioned in the USSR in 1971.

049 SA-4 Ganef - proper name is 2K11 Krug. Date is OK.

050 SA-6 Gainful - proper name is 2K12 Kub. Used from 1974 only (now 1/73) - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autor...ata_59_85.html

...

060 SA-13 Strela-10 - to be removed - they were withdrawn before 2005 [Raport 6/2000] (now 1/105) - see unit #46

061 SA-2 Guideline - proper name of later variant is S-75M Wolchow. Used from 1964 [http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/eksport_pzr.html and Polish Military Equipment] (now 1/84) until 2001 (now 1/97).
The only difference from the unit 047 is better radar 110, but Russian S-75 Volkhov, available from 1/62, has 105. In fact, it should have more improvements over SA-75, but I'm not going to twiddle with it, at least this year...

...

074, 076 SA-5 Gammon - proper name is S-200 Wega (or Russian Vega). Very rare - only two units near the seaside (maybe radio code 3). Delivered in late 86, operational from 1987 (http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autor...ata_59_85.html - now 1/86)

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile (...) To be removed as for now IMO.

I've found, that in 2009 Polish MoD ordered a batch of HE ammunition, what would need also slight FCS modification. According to a Polish military magazine http://polska-zbrojna.pl/index.php?o...owe&Itemid=165 there was a meeting in November 2011 between tankers and ammunition designers and producers, to prepare putting the ammo into service. Chief of training of the 10th Brigade claimed, that "probably soon" HE ammunition will be commissioned.

So, I suggest to keep #022 with VIRSS but without HE (from 1/106, as it is now, though I don't know, when actually Polish Leos received VIRSS) and #023 from some 6/112 with HE but without Lahat.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!

373 SPG-82 RR - there's no sign that such weapon was ever used in Poland.

First date of formations 79 and 214 should be changed according to unit #68 (1/55 also corresponds with an introduction of BTR-152).


069 B11 Recoilless - better pic is 29442 or 29397.

070 SPG9 Recoilless - used from 1968 (now 1/71) (http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=137 , other written sources confirm "late 60s"). Still in limited service, possibly until 120 (now 12/94).
Basic version should have vision 0 - there was other version SPG-9N with night sights (it could be created as a new unit). Better secondary weapon is newer 029 rifle. According to Polish sources, standard crew is 4 men (3).

071 RPG-7 - standard ammo load is 5, like in Russian OOB (8) (or is it for more fun?).

In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). A round with 500mm penetration is PG-7VL (apparently still fired from RPG-7V), in Russia since 1977. There is however no sign, that Poland used anything more advanced, than PG-7VM with 330mm penetration, produced in Poland and still being a main infantry AT weapon (dates from article in Polish http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=440 ).

Speaking of RPG-7:
169, 212 RPG-7V Team - there's no sign of usage of PG-7VL rounds with 500 penetration. Unit 169 differs from 212 only in having too much ammo.

If we change unit 71 and its weapon to standard early RPG-7 with penetration 260mm, then unit 169 and its weapon could be changed to standard RPG-7V with 330mm penetration, available from 1972 until 120.
The other may be armed with weapon 152 RPG-7MT - Polish tandem Heat round, ready for production in 2007, but with unclear status. Weapon's class however should be changed to multi-charge Heat.

073 Fagot ATGM - used only from 1979 (1/76) [nTW 3/2005], until some 115-120 (1/90) - next unit has a different rifle, but AKMS rifles rather won't be wiped out soon.
For 4 missiles and launcher there was required 3-men crew (now 2 men) (according to Soviet sources, some 26 kg launcher and 13 kg each missile).

075 Spike ATGM - crew is 3 (2) [Polish MoD page http://www.wp.mil.pl/pl/strona/205/LG_59_150/ ] (it sure is needed to carry launcher and 4 missiles)

215 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

287 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (see unit 73).

288 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (as above). Most probably will be used until 120 (115).

488 Malutka-2 ATGM - Malutka-2 was a Russian recent export proposal with twin Heat, definitely not bought by Poland. This unit should be in fact ordinary Malutka ATGM. Its weapon should be just normal #145 Malutka - #155 Malutka-P is a semi-automatic version for SP-launchers (it can be used from ordinary launchers, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It should be available from 105 (now 1/99) (after unit #72) until not later, than 115 (now 120). Radio should be 91 or even 93 - totally obsolete now.

561 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

AFVs to trucks

051 BTR-40 (Gun APC) - should be used until some 1965 (now: 12/60) (especially, that BRDM-1 should be available from 1963 and it would make a gap)

052 BRDM-1 (Gun APC) - 12.7 mm MG wasn't used in Poland on BRDM-1 (according to Zaloga, only some Soviet BRDMs were armed this way). It's never seen on photos of Polish vehicles. The only armament should be SGMT (correctly named SGMB - for all countries).
Better name is just BRDM (there were names BRDM and BRDM-2), but BRDM-1 could be. Used from 1963 (now: 1/61) [Poligon 3/2010]

053 BRDM-2 (Gun APC) - used from 1966 until now - 1/115 at least (now: 1/67-12/105) [Poligon 3/2010].
Soviet BRDM-2s in that period (#698, 699) have vision 15 (this one 20). In fact, it has no night gun sights at all [confirmed in Raport 9/2010].

054 OT-62 - proper name in Polish service is TOPAS. Speed in fact is 60 km/h (now 18), it could carry 16 men (112).
In fact, it carried no fixed weapons, only troop section's PK LMG, but this is relatively minor issue (now: SGMT AAMG).

They were used only by the 7th Naval Landing Division, not as ordinary APC, so maybe it should be class Heavy Amphib, like units #417 and #703. Used from 1963 (now 1/64) [Poligon 5/2010] until some 1991 (now 12/96 - definitely not that long). Better pic is 29091 (11057 is probably BTR-50, mirrored in addition)

All formations using APC (track) should start with BWP-1 (BMP-1) only (1/73), and earlier ones should be deleted. There were no tracked APC in Poland before BWP, apart from landing units, mentioned above. There could be created separate naval infantry formations in 1963-1991, with Heavy amphibs.

055 SKOT-2A - used as APC only until some 1991 (now: 12/104 - definitely not that long).

056 BTR-152- in bigger number used only from 1955 (now: 1/52) (there were only 6 in 12/54) [Poligon 3/2010]. Weapon used was actually #53 SGMT AAMG.

All formations using APC (wheel) should be available in 1955-1991 only.

057 BTR-50PK - Poland never used BTR-50s - to be removed.

058 OT-65 FUG (Gun APC) - proper name in Poland was just FUG or FUG D422 (OT-65 was Czechoslovak designation). Used from 1963 until some 1985 only (now: 1/66-12/95) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carried no fixed armament - only could carry crew's LMG. A second one should be added as a Scout vehicle? (like BRDMs)

059 BTR-152K - "hardtop" variant, used in Poland in small number, from late 50s, say 1959 (now 1/55 - it was produced in the USSR from 1957 only). Radio code should be 1. Armament should be SGMT or PKT AAMG.

...

062 BTR-50P - Poland never used BTR-50s. To be removed.

063 MT-LB (prime mover) - Poland definitely never used MT-LB as a prime mover - only in several special variants. To be removed IMO or changed to something else.

Apart from numerous prototypes, only 5 types of vehicles on MT-LB base were used in Poland in any significant numbers:
- WPT Mors (ARRV, which doesn't seem relevant to the game),
- TRI Hors (engineers' recce vehicle, which I'll describe later)
- TI Durian (engineers' carrier, which I'll describe later)
- basic vehicle for drivers' training
- different command and control vehicles

064 BWP-1 - should carry only 4 missiles.

065 BWP-1 - it should have the same 9M14 missiles as above, not semi-automatic 9M14P. There weren't modified in any way, especially in 1999 (the missiles would be obsolete anyway at that time). With correct missiles, the only difference from the unit above is radio and camouflage (introduced around 1990).

066 Heavy Truck - much better picture is 29169 (KrAZ truck) (Poland didn't use 2-axle heavy truck like 11067)

067 ZIS - better - more universal name seems ZiS/ZiL 6x6 or ZiS/ZiL truck (covering models 151, 157, 133). ZiS 151 production started only in 1948 (1/46). If it's ZiL, ending date could be late 80s. (12/59)

Regards
Michal