Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!

373 SPG-82 RR - there's no sign that such weapon was ever used in Poland.

First date of formations 79 and 214 should be changed according to unit #68 (1/55 also corresponds with an introduction of BTR-152).


069 B11 Recoilless - better pic is 29442 or 29397.

070 SPG9 Recoilless - used from 1968 (now 1/71) (http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=137 , other written sources confirm "late 60s"). Still in limited service, possibly until 120 (now 12/94).
Basic version should have vision 0 - there was other version SPG-9N with night sights (it could be created as a new unit). Better secondary weapon is newer 029 rifle. According to Polish sources, standard crew is 4 men (3).

071 RPG-7 - standard ammo load is 5, like in Russian OOB (8) (or is it for more fun?).

In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). A round with 500mm penetration is PG-7VL (apparently still fired from RPG-7V), in Russia since 1977. There is however no sign, that Poland used anything more advanced, than PG-7VM with 330mm penetration, produced in Poland and still being a main infantry AT weapon (dates from article in Polish http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=440 ).

Speaking of RPG-7:
169, 212 RPG-7V Team - there's no sign of usage of PG-7VL rounds with 500 penetration. Unit 169 differs from 212 only in having too much ammo.

If we change unit 71 and its weapon to standard early RPG-7 with penetration 260mm, then unit 169 and its weapon could be changed to standard RPG-7V with 330mm penetration, available from 1972 until 120.
The other may be armed with weapon 152 RPG-7MT - Polish tandem Heat round, ready for production in 2007, but with unclear status. Weapon's class however should be changed to multi-charge Heat.

073 Fagot ATGM - used only from 1979 (1/76) [nTW 3/2005], until some 115-120 (1/90) - next unit has a different rifle, but AKMS rifles rather won't be wiped out soon.
For 4 missiles and launcher there was required 3-men crew (now 2 men) (according to Soviet sources, some 26 kg launcher and 13 kg each missile).

075 Spike ATGM - crew is 3 (2) [Polish MoD page http://www.wp.mil.pl/pl/strona/205/LG_59_150/ ] (it sure is needed to carry launcher and 4 missiles)

215 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

287 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (see unit 73).

288 Fagot ATGM - 3-men crew (as above). Most probably will be used until 120 (115).

488 Malutka-2 ATGM - Malutka-2 was a Russian recent export proposal with twin Heat, definitely not bought by Poland. This unit should be in fact ordinary Malutka ATGM. Its weapon should be just normal #145 Malutka - #155 Malutka-P is a semi-automatic version for SP-launchers (it can be used from ordinary launchers, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It should be available from 105 (now 1/99) (after unit #72) until not later, than 115 (now 120). Radio should be 91 or even 93 - totally obsolete now.

561 Factoria ATGM - development of Fagot, definitely not used in Poland.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Going farther, Inf-RR, Inf-AT, Inf-ATGM and misc. guns:

068 B10 Recoilless (inf-RR) - according to sources, used in Poland from mid-1950s (1/55 is quite likely) until 1980s at best (now: 1/50-12/99. 1/50 is impossible, since it was accepted by the Soviets in 1954). It was gradually replaced with SPG-9 and I'd say, that latest date of B-10 in units should be no later, than 12/79 - definitely not after 1989. Secondary weapons should be SMG (eg. 006) instead of rifle. Better picture IMO is 29396.

In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses, and 4 were sold in 2009 to Afghanistan!

OK Michal, let's review what you wrote

The B10 Recoilless was:

a/ Used."until 1980s at best "

b/ "should be no later, than 12/79 "

c/ "definitely not after 1989"

d/ "In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses"


Would you like another chance to make that MORE confusing and inconsistent ?

To recap what you have told me--- It should be taken OOS in 1979 but it was used until the 80's but no later than 1989 but it was listed as officially withdrawn in 1994 but they are being kept in warehouses and some have been sold.

FYI...they now exist in the OOB until 1989 or until you can come up with information that doesn't contradict itself 5 times

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In fact, early RPG-7 used PG-7V round with 260mm penetration, then RPG-7V introduced PG-7VM round with 300-330mm penetration in 1969 (in Poland since 1972). ........

Yes we know about the early round. If you look at the OOB's the early RPG-7 round does not exist anywhere because that conserved unit and weapons slots in the Russian OOB that were and are in very short supply and , like the Panzerfausts in SPWW2 that have been blended into one so the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's. It only served for a short time before the improved version and this saved a lot of unit slots in a lot of OOB's and we didn't think the added penetration earlier made a whole lot of difference in the game so it's an amalgamation


Don

[Pibwl]

Somehow I haven't noticed that post:

Originally Posted by DRG

OK Michal, let's review what you wrote

The B10 Recoilless was:

a/ Used."until 1980s at best "

b/ "should be no later, than 12/79 "

c/ "definitely not after 1989"

d/ "In 1994 it was reported as withdrawn - although they are apparently still kept in warehouses"

Again, sorry for too much mess. It was definitely not used after 1989. 1994 is not a year of withdrawal, but a year of an article on B-10, in which it is reported as gone (there is no specified ending date, but it says, that they started to be replaced from late 60s and it seems from a context, that it must have been gone for at least several years). I believe, that 12/79 is closer to true ending date, but I have no firm info
Other information were just as a point of interest - it surprised me as well, that they are stored (although they could theoretically be put out of warehouses in case of, say, major war and a need of creating guerilla units

Originally Posted by DRG

FYI...they now exist in the OOB until 1989 or until you can come up with information that doesn't contradict itself 5 times

1989 is a safe date - although I'm pretty sure it was gone before.

Originally Posted by DRG

Yes we know about the early round. If you look at the OOB's the early RPG-7 round does not exist anywhere because that conserved unit and weapons slots in the Russian OOB that were and are in very short supply and , like the Panzerfausts in SPWW2 that have been blended into one so the stock "RPG-7" is represented as the 330mm penetration version in all OOB's. It only served for a short time before the improved version and this saved a lot of unit slots in a lot of OOB's and we didn't think the added penetration earlier made a whole lot of difference in the game so it's an amalgamation

I thought so. But since Poland didn't use newer Soviet rounds, it could have 260mm and 330mm rounds separated (although it's a handicap comparing to other RPG-7 users

As for the new Polish round PG-7MT (correctly PG-7MT1), about which I wrote that its status is unclear - it is possible, that some limited number was bought and it should be added from some 2008. Weapon #152 RPG-7MT needs modification - it has tandem Heat round, with penetration stated as ERA+500, range 300m [in nTW 5/2006 magazine].

Michal

[Pibwl]

Guns


078 57mm AT-Gun (1965-96) - could be removed in this period at all IMO - from 1955 being replaced with 85 mm gun. Possibly stored in depots after 1965, but sure not longer, than end of 1970s due to limited capabilities. Anyway, better pic is 29439 (BTW, mine).

079 ZUR-23-2S JOD (Flak) - introduced in 1988 according to Polish Military Equipment book and nTW 9/2010 (now 1/95). Name is written "Jod" - this isn't abbreviation. Correct picture is 29273.

It should have somewhat lower FC, than #95 ZUR-23-KG (20), though higher, than basic ZU-23-2 (5) - 15 seems appropriate (it has Polish GP-1 gyroscope sight)

080 37mm AA-Gun - actually used until 2000 for airfield protection (now: 12/59) [Raport 6/2000]. It was used normally at least until mid-60s (until ZU-23 introduction).

Maybe there should be created a second unit, from some 1966-68, with 029 rifle and radio 91 or 93.

081 57mm AT-Gun (1946-64) - crew's armament should rather be 006 SMGs, than bolt rifles. Better picture is 29439.

082 85mm AT-Gun - according to Polish Military Equipment book, used from 1954 (now 1/55). It's hard to say, what gun a picture shows - better is 29428 or 29429. Crew's armament should rather be 006 SMGs, than AK rifles (especially in initial years).

083 M1944 100mm ATG (1968-89) - Last date seems OK, or could be several years earlier (in the 1960s they were withdrawn for training and mobilisation reserve). Correct pic is 29427 (or poor, but commonly used for this gun 11084) - now it's 85mm D-44.

084 M1944 100mm ATG - used from 1947 (1/55) [Poligon 3/2010]. Correct pic is 29427 (as above). Crew's armament should rather be 006 SMGs, than bolt rifles.

086 ZPU-2 AAMG - in Poland named PKMZ-2, though it's not necessary. Used until 2008 at least (12/96) [Raport 1/2005]. 006 SMG as crew's weapon will be closer to truth, than rifles (from mid-50s it was AK rifle). Alternative (maybe nicer) pic 29204 (probably even in Polish service photo).

087 ZPU-4 AAMG - used until end of 1980s at best (now: 12/96)

088 ZU-23 AA-Gun - precise name is ZU-23-2. Used from 1966 (1/65) [Polish Military Equipment] until 120 (12/109) - they won't be all replaced with newer variants. It's a detail, but crew is 5 (4) [same source]. Better crew's weapon is newer 029 rifle.

By the way: I strongly suggest to rename weapon 008 AKM Rifle to AK Rifle (basic model AK-47, adopted in 1952 - designation "47" was never used in Poland), and 029 AKMS Rifle to AKM Rifle (adopted in 1965).
AKM was a modernized AK-47, while AKMS was AKM with a folding stock (adopted in early 70s). Now we have two separate rifles of the same generation (AKM and AKMS), and no coverage of earlier weapon (AKM name in the 50s is anachronism). AK and AKM would cover also folding stock versions IMO (AKS and AKMS), without need of distinction.

089 57mm AA-Gun - used from 1955 only (1/50) [nTW 8/98]. Crew's weapon should be 008 AK(M) or 006 SMG rather.

090 76mm Field Gun - used from 1/46 (1/50) - WW2 leftovers. Maybe this weapon should have some AP ammo as well (pen=10, like weapon 235 76.2mm L41 F-34)?
Crew's weapon should be 006 SMG rather than bolt rifle.

091, 092 122mm Field Gun - could use some Heat ammo. First unit's crew should be armed with 006 SMGs rather than rifles. A border date between these units should be some 1962-1965, not 1954 - arming howitzers' crews with AK rifles wasn't a priority. Better pictures are 29403 or 29404.

There could be created third unit, from 1985, with 29285 picture (wz.38/85 modification, differing mostly in wheels) and 029 rifles.


095 ZUR-23-KG - precise name is ZUR-23-2KG, it could be named "ZUR23-2KG Jodek". Year 2002 is OK. Crew should have #28 wz.96 Beryl (M1930 rifles are probably just a mistake). At that time, new APDS ammo was developed in Poland, with increased penetration (may be as Sabot)

There should be created new unit with the same name, available from some 2006, with better FC, laser RF and night vision (with CP-1 computer sight/FCS; ordinary ZUR-23-2KG had CKE-2 colimator sight) [nTW 3/2006]

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Guns


078 57mm AT-Gun (1965-96) - could be removed in this period at all IMO - from 1955 being replaced with 85 mm gun. Possibly stored in depots after 1965, but sure not longer, than end of 1970s due to limited capabilities. Anyway, better pic is 29439 (BTW, mine).

079 ZUR-23-2S JOD (Flak) - introduced in 1988 according to Polish Military Equipment book and nTW 9/2010 (now 1/95). Name is written "Jod" - this isn't abbreviation. Correct picture is 29273.

I think this would be a good time to clear a couple of issues up.

I have highlighted them above.

First nTW 9/2010

I've seen this in a number of posts it does not seem to tie into anything else in your posts so I have been ignoring it as I have NO IDEA what it's stands for

One of these perhaps ???

NTW Navy Theater Wide (BMDO)
NTW Not to Worry
NTW National Tourism Week
NTW Norwegian Travel Workshop
NTW National Training Wage
NTW Napoleonic Total War (game)
NTW No Time Wasters
NTW Not of This World (usually seen as NOTW)
NTW National Public Safety Telecommunicators Week
NTW Network The World
NTW Non Territorial Working
NTW Non-Traditional Warfare
NTW Not This Way
NTW Network Transparent Widget(s)
NTW New Technology (NT) Workstation (Microsoft)
NTW Northumberland, Tyne and Wear (UK)

So what does "nTW" really mean ?


As for the photos. You can continue to suggest photos BUT be aware that over 10% of the photos in winSPMBT have already been replaced with new ones and the percent could go as high as 15% or 20% when the patch is finally released depending on when I finally "hit the wall" and stop.

I can now very easily find what photos are not being used and when I come across one,and I can see no possible use for it, I use that number for something new which is what has already happened to both of those photos you referred to. I have used some of your other suggested photo changes but now I'm starting to find some of the new ones that I have replaced with something different.

Don

[Pibwl]

"nTW..." and other info in square brackets are sources - in this case, Polish magazine "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" (New Military Technology) - I think I've quoted the title before; anyway, sorry for being incomprehensible.

As for pictures - I think I'll continue, for following reasons. When I'm writing "correct picture", like in a case of ZUR-23-2S JOD, it means, that a present picture is wrong, but I've found a correct one. In this case, a present picture is ordinary ZU-23-2, while the correct one shows the Polish gun with missiles. So you can reconsider its removal, or change it to other number, or replace with a better one - as you want.

As for "better pictures" - well, I'm working on present files, so I hope this isn't too much work for you to check if the new one is still "better". There is always a chance, that a specific picture that I spot isn't going to be improved, and then it could be replaced with something better, if it's still present in game files.

There are tons of unused (and mostly redundant) Polish pictures in the game (a couple I recognize as mine), but I could give you a list of several unused pictures, that actually should be utilized in the game (like Ya-12 tractor 29395, Mazur tractor 29390 or 29171 and several others).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

095 ZUR-23-KG - precise name is ZUR-23-2KG, it could be named "ZUR23-2KG Jodek". Year 2002 is OK. Crew should have #28 wz.96 Beryl (M1930 rifles are probably just a mistake). At that time, new APDS ammo was developed in Poland, with increased penetration (may be as Sabot)

There should be created new unit with the same name, available from some 2006, with better FC, laser RF and night vision (with CP-1 computer sight/FCS; ordinary ZUR-23-2KG had CKE-2 colimator sight) [nTW 3/2006]

The new APDS ammunition offers higher penetration (with no specific data given) and bigger efficient range of 3000m vs 2000m [source: nTW 11/2007]. If you decide to add it, it could be matched with the modified ZUR-23-2KG with CP-1 sight from 2007 (it has no specific name, but it could be named ZUR-23-2KG CP-1) (a serial production of the ammo started probably in 2008, but trial batches were made before).

Going farther:
093 SGM MMG [2] - crew would rather have SMG (eg. 006), than bolt rifles.

094 PKMS MMG [2] - correct pic is 45377 or 29441 (now it's SGM)

096 12.7mm WKM HMG - it should be named just NSW HMG (Polish version of NSV). Better pic is common 11096.

It's weapon should be changed - now it is #037 12.7mm WKM HMG, but "wkm" is just a Polish generic abbreviation for "big calibre MG". Probably it's supposed to be WKM-B - recent development of NSW for 0.5 Browning ammo, used from some 2001 (might be named WKMB due to limit). Earlier HMGs should be just NSW (or NSV).
There is a possible free slot to convert to NSV HMG - #176 12.7mm NSV MG - helicopter MG, which in fact shouldn't be used by Polish helicopters (I'll write about it later).

097 40mm GA AGL - automatic GL are used in Poland only from late 2007 (in service around 11/2007) (now: 1/103) and they are US Mk.19, not Polish GA (still in development, with unclear future). Correct picture is 12095. Crew should have #28 wz.96 Beryl, not AKM rifles. It would need change in formations.

Weapon 049 should be changed to Mk.19 - this is the first and, as for now, only AGL in Polish service.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Quick list of IMO useful unused pics:

- 14021 - WR-40 Langusta, will be needed for new unit
- 29041 - SU-57 SP-gun (unit 550 has wrong Israeli one - or could be replaced with a photo)
- 29057 - 2P27 BRDM Shmel launcher (for many countries, 11031 is Falanga 2P32)
- 29063 - Polish BTR-40 seems better, than currently used 29097
- 29106 - open-topped BTR-152 (standard pic 11056 is hardtop 152K)
- 29130 - Tu-2 - will be needed for new unit
- 29137 - TS-11 Iskra - might be needed for new unit
- 29161 - SM-2 helicopter - will be needed for new unit
- 29168 - popular Soviet Zil-131 medium truck
- 29173 - Tatra T813 Kolos heavy truck
- 29202 - Zil-485 BAV (for many countries - might be replaced with a better view, anyway)
- 29208 - K-61 with AA gun - for possible use
- 29281 - BRDM-2 M96 - possibly better then 29521
- 29285 - 122mm wz.38/85 - modernized 122mm howitzer
- 29286 - GAZ-51
- 29310 - Project 716 landing craft
- 29333 - WP-8z MRL - correct pic for unit 161
- 29338 - BRDM 2P32 Falanga - alternative instead of 11031 for Soviet Union
- 29388 - modern Jelcz Polish heavy truck
- 29508 - WPT Mors ARRV - would fit as well for MT-LB-based vehicles, TI Durian and TRI (until more specific ones are created)
- 29509 - SP minelet launcher Kroton (I don't know if such vehicle will be of any use)


Michal

[Pibwl]

To continue with Inf AT

223 C Gustav Team - used from 1997 (now 1/100) [source: nTW 6/2005]. Rare weapon - used only by special forces and, from 2001, airmobile forces.
It has single Heat pen=50 range=9 in the game, but there are used tandem Heat rounds FFV 751 (ERA+500mm, range 450m) and ordinary FFV 551 (400mm, range 700 m).

370 PTRD ATR Team - withdrawn in 1948 due to limited value (now 12/49) [Poligon 2/2011]

371 PF Team - a small number of preserved original wartime Panzerfaust were commissioned to use in limited numbers from 1950 only [Poligon 3/2011] - although, in case of war, it would be logical to decide to utilize them earlier. They were designated in Poland as PG-49 - withdrawn by the end of 1952 (now: available 1/46-12/49). Maybe unit should be named "PG-49 Team" or "PG-49 (PF) Team"?

A Polish copy of Panzerfaust was produced in a small series, named Pc-100, used in 1953-57 [source: Poligon 4/2011]. Maybe there should be second unit, with the same weapon, differing in unit's name only?

372 RPG-2 Team - used in Poland only from 1953 (now: 1/50) [Poligon 4/2011]

379 Anti-Tank Team (1946-55) - RKG-3 grenade was post-war development - according to Russian Wikipedia, from 1950. But there's no sign, that it was used in Poland. Polish Military Equipment book mentions only WWII-era RPG-43 grenades, with 75mm penetration. More correct picture is 00351.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Next: paras and engineers

098 Para Squad (50-54) - paras should have SMGs (eg. 06) instead of bolt rifles. RPG-2 was used only from 1953 - it should be replaced with AT grenades.

099 Para Squad (55-68) - there's no sign of usage of P-27 Pancerovka in Poland (definitely not in any noticeable number) - should be replaced with ordinary #15 RPG-2.

100 Para Squad (69-89) - PKM LMG should be replaced with #12 7.62mm RPK SAW (they were used only by the paratroops in Poland), rifle could be changed to newer #29.
It's better to change RPG-7 to RPG-7V - although it was used in Poland from 1972 according to the info quoted before, but for most of the unit's period it's correct.

101, 102 Para Squad (99-99, 100-120) - RPG-7 as above.

103 SMG Section (50-62) - RPG-2 should be replaced with AT grenades. Maybe a second unit with RPG-2 should be created from some 1955.

106, 107 Sniper - more proper pic is 41019 (Mosin) or 29418 (SVT), instead of some rifle unused in Poland.

109 Engineers (62-76) - WW2-vintage ordinary Flamethower should be replaced with #113 LPO-50 flamethrower. In fact, it should have range extended to 2 - it was 70-90 m [Wojskowy Przeglad Techniczny no.6/97]. On the other hand, LPO-50 has only 3 shots.

In fact, according to a quoted source, flamethrowers were withdrawn in 1964 and returned in second half of 1970s. Moreover, they weren't used in sections, but in separate units. But I don't insist on changes here.

110 Engineers (69-99) - as above (LPO-50). I don't know, if a starting date shouldn't be 77, after a previous unit, or it's deliberate (they differ in number of men).

111 Engineers (100-120) - RPO-A Shmel should be replaced with LPO-50.

Poland didn't use RPO-A Shmel at all, only RPO Rys (weapon #76 in Russian oob), from late 70s until around early 1990s (say, 76-95), then they were withdrawn due to running out of ammo and wear of launchers [Wojskowy Przeglad Techniczny no.6/97]. They could be used in a new unit in that period.

Michal