How do you beat the Talisman?

[Phoenix-D]

"external missiles might be cheaper or smaller because they dont have the same ammo magazines attached to them, but they should not MASS less because they are attached to the outside."

If they're just bolted on the outside, they can indeed be much lighter. Missile + hookup to ship, that's IT, where the standard thing would be missle +internal space + hookups +launcher + magazine/reloads + reload mechanism.

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

You are correct Puke. But as far as I know all the mods that have "external mount" missiles do fire one shot per combat round and the absence of any magazine or reload mechanism is the justication of the reduced size. Not the fact that they are externally mounted. I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone was making the case that external mounting itself means the comp would take up less displacment.

Geoschmo

EDIT: Oops. I guess Phoenix is making that case.

[ August 06, 2002, 23:03: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Phoenix-D]

"EDIT: Oops. I guess Phoenix is making that case."

Uh-uh. Look at my comparison a little closer. (I've never seen a non one-shot external missile in SE4, either)

Phoenix-D

[Pax]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"EDIT: Oops. I guess Phoenix is making that case."

Uh-uh. Look at my comparison a little closer. (I've never seen a non one-shot external missile in SE4, either)

Phoenix-D

Expect it from me. I've already drafted preliminary plans to do something similar; not sure it'll be external, but it'll be single-shot regardless.

Might be a fighter weapon, so technically it WOULD be external (mounted under a wing or the like).

Might actually be an external SHIP missile.

Might be no lighter, but do compatratively trememndous damage (picture taking the mass of a CSMV, with magazine, reload mechanism, launch system, tc ... packing it ALL into a single, half-as-big-as-an-escort missile ... LOL ...). Sort of the reverse of flooding the target's PDC; one gigantic easy-to-hit heavily-armored godawfully-huge-warhead missile. Think of it being, oh, say ... ~250kT, having perhaps 20x the damage resistance and damage potential of a CSM of comparable technology, slow as molasses, ultra-long-range, and firing once per combat. Great against bases and planets,or bigger,slower ships, but smallfry could run circles around it (like, speed 2 to 3 ... range 20 to 30 ... 3000 to 5000 damage ... damage resistance of ~1000 or so ... heh ).

[Puke]

hmm. while a one shot launcher can save mass by leaving out specific components, one shot and external do not always go together. indeed, the only thing external should mean is that its not protected by armor.

by taking a significant part of the ships displacement and bolting it outside of the armor, you should be able to get better coverage with your existing armor for the rest of the ship. i dont think there is any way to modle this though, so external missiles really mean nothing in this game.

if you are using 'external' to be synomous with 'one shot,' then the component designs make some sense, but it could be a bit clearer, i think.

i guess im just nit-picking.

[oleg]

If it would be possible to assign "armor" ability to externally mount missiles, it will work exactly as you want - it will be destroyed before internals and even absorb some damage in the process (assigned armor ability should be small of course).

[CW]

This is possible, but it takes a LOT of ships. The biggest advatage using swarms of small ships is that the difficulty in hitting them makes up for how easily they go poof when hit. Against a Tailsman fleet you lose this advantage. It's better to go with fewer larger ships that can hold up to the damage longer, since their defensive disadvantage is irrelevant anyway. In the end you will land more shots against him for the same amount of resources.

If you are using subverters against someone with talisman, it *IS* probably better to go small. AI targeting is flawed and even if you have the highest level of combat sensor, your ships won't shoot at 5 targets in one turn in simultaneous games. Build a whole bunch of light cruisers with a single virus pack and a large mount subverter each, tell them to deliver the "message" up close and personal is perhaps the best thing to do. The biggest resource wastage with small ships is that you have to build a lot more engines, so if you play with a newtonian propulsion mod the waste is a lot less significant.

By the way, fully filling up a hull is NOT a design requirement! You can always use the swarm tactic AND large/heavy mounts together. The base cost for a dreadnought is only 850 minerals more than an escort.

[ August 07, 2002, 13:12: Message edited by: CW ]