Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by Finalgenesis

I think the key word is "non-trivial". Diversification is still present, just non-trivial. most path more or less have some and it's definitely non-trivial.

Diversity summons are mostly combinations of high research, high cost, cross path. Death's diversification specialty definitely have these elements in spades.

For example, Spectral mage, which can be verrry expensive rolling paths you need for a relatively low path level. The hiddens are all cross path and a bit out of the way. Tarts which are probably foremost in people's mind is both cross path (nature), end research, and somewhat expensive to get paths you want (all them restore soul and rolling good titans add up). Still, I see that as death's specialty, raising the dead with knowledge of other paths.

That's one aspect of dom3 I really like, that the 8 paths are so diverse from each other and each with useful/meaningful specialties of their own.

I guess its just sort of a pet peeve of mine regarding dom 3. I wouldn't mind it if this was death's specialty, raising makes with knowledge of other paths. The problem is that it's not like death can do it particularly well, and the other paths just have middling success at it. Its that death is the only way to do it, period. There is no cross path magic diversity outside of death (or a spell with death as some component). It forces a bunch of nations that otherwise would have really no reason to go into death down that path. It often forces you to put death on a pretender when if there were even the barest of options outside of death you'd never take it. Heck a nature summons with even a 50% chance of an astral pick would cover a lot of the reasons that many nations need to pick up death in some way.

Take a nation like tir na nog. About as close as you come to a 'good' nation in dominions and thematically they definitely shouldn't be summoning up dead mages from beyond the grave and awakening dead gods. However, unless you want to be shooting gallery for mind hunts you'd better find some way to get astral mages. If you're lucky you'll find some lizard men or crystal amazons. But if you get an unlucky indi roll, you find yourself having to (rather un-thematically) crawl up death for a few specters for AMA and mind hunt cover.

I'm not saying that the other paths need tartarians or even specters. But it would be nice if they got a couple summons that would give them a couple random picks here or there that didn't require a pretender with D-magic.

[bbz]

Originally Posted by Torgon

I guess its just sort of a pet peeve of mine regarding dom 3. I wouldn't mind it if this was death's specialty, raising makes with knowledge of other paths. The problem is that it's not like death can do it particularly well, and the other paths just have middling success at it. Its that death is the only way to do it, period. There is no cross path magic diversity outside of death (or a spell with death as some component). It forces a bunch of nations that otherwise would have really no reason to go into death down that path. It often forces you to put death on a pretender when if there were even the barest of options outside of death you'd never take it. Heck a nature summons with even a 50% chance of an astral pick would cover a lot of the reasons that many nations need to pick up death in some way.

Take a nation like tir na nog. About as close as you come to a 'good' nation in dominions and thematically they definitely shouldn't be summoning up dead mages from beyond the grave and awakening dead gods. However, unless you want to be shooting gallery for mind hunts you'd better find some way to get astral mages. If you're lucky you'll find some lizard men or crystal amazons. But if you get an unlucky indi roll, you find yourself having to (rather un-thematically) crawl up death for a few specters for AMA and mind hunt cover.

I'm not saying that the other paths need tartarians or even specters. But it would be nice if they got a couple summons that would give them a couple random picks here or there that didn't require a pretender with D-magic.

The thing is nations like T'ir Na N'og are not supposed to be sending mind hunts every where, so while they are brave soldiers I don't really see them as Nation that gazes at the stars to gain power. Also what about golems? E2S3 You need as little as S2 on your pretender and you are sorted. Heck even S1 works if you can get someone to forge you one astral cap.And voila you get your mind hunter. Also none of the paths doesnt require Death to get them. Yea death can be a way of achieving all of them at once, but as It was said you have high research requirement and its at high risk (not getting the chalice) and nature as cross path.

Also back on T'ir Na N'og, you get a really strong middle game nation, that has decent expansion rate(fir blogs are amazing) so you don't even need an awake pretender, for the 100 extra design points you get from that, you can get f4 e2 s2 d2- those paths are enough for you to get into fire astral and death. While at the moment the fire bless attack +2 is a bit redundant due to the fact that Ri's lances always hit hopefully that will change in the future(cough cough).

If every single nations was mind hunting, summoning zmeys, and use Fog warriors everywhere, then they wouldn't be different at all. And the diversity is what I love most in Dominions, because every nation has a different way it is played(and heck it even has 20 different ways it can be played). If you give every nation a spell to diversify them into the paths they don't have using as you suggested their natural income. Then you reduce the strategical depth of the game. If everyone could use the best Sc's the best assassination spells, the most cost-effective troops, why bother with other spells? The way it is at the moment: you are not strong in astral but you have strong earth what can you do instead of mind hunt - Earth attack ,sure it takes 5E gems and its less cost effective than mind hunt but to compensate, on the field of battle you get army of lead/gold weapons of sharpness pertrify and loads of other nice buffs.

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by bbz

The thing is nations like T'ir Na N'og are not supposed to be sending mind hunts every where, so while they are brave soldiers I don't really see them as Nation that gazes at the stars to gain power. Also what about golems? E2S3 You need as little as S2 on your pretender and you are sorted. Heck even S1 works if you can get someone to forge you one astral cap.And voila you get your mind hunter. Also none of the paths doesnt require Death to get them. Yea death can be a way of achieving all of them at once, but as It was said you have high research requirement and its at high risk (not getting the chalice) and nature as cross path.

Also back on T'ir Na N'og, you get a really strong middle game nation, that has decent expansion rate(fir blogs are amazing) so you don't even need an awake pretender, for the 100 extra design points you get from that, you can get f4 e2 s2 d2- those paths are enough for you to get into fire astral and death. While at the moment the fire bless attack +2 is a bit redundant due to the fact that Ri's lances always hit hopefully that will change in the future(cough cough).

If every single nations was mind hunting, summoning zmeys, and use Fog warriors everywhere, then they wouldn't be different at all. And the diversity is what I love most in Dominions, because every nation has a different way it is played(and heck it even has 20 different ways it can be played). If you give every nation a spell to diversify them into the paths they don't have using as you suggested their natural income. Then you reduce the strategical depth of the game. If everyone could use the best Sc's the best assassination spells, the most cost-effective troops, why bother with other spells? The way it is at the moment: you are not strong in astral but you have strong earth what can you do instead of mind hunt - Earth attack ,sure it takes 5E gems and its less cost effective than mind hunt but to compensate, on the field of battle you get army of lead/gold weapons of sharpness pertrify and loads of other nice buffs.

Never said that Tir should be spamming mind hunts. Said mind hunt cover, meaning protection from mind hunts. And yes, tir does need this. As tir, or man, or pan, etc. if you're not thinking about how to protect yourself from mind hunts at a very early stage you'll get fried. Unfortunately, as it stands now the only way to reliably get cover (outside or lucky indi mages) is death.

I have no desire to give every nation access to the best spells in the game, and don't want to see everyone spamming mind hunts and banes. Thats sort of my point, and I thought sort of one of the point of CBM, to make thematic national paths viable options, and open up alternative strategies for nations to pursue. I'm saying that I think that one barrier to this goal is the fact that death remains the only path with any sort of magical diversity. Once again, exactly what I don't want is every nation spamming tarts, I don't even want tarts for the other paths. What would be nice however is a summons that got a couple random picks here or there outside of death.

And no I'm not forgetting about the Fairy Queens, Demon lords, and Heliophagi. Heliophagi and Demon lords are both limited in number so not really reliable. Fairy queens actually do provide some diversity and probably should be discussed. But I'd actually say that they're the singular example of what I wish were more common. A way, even if its difficult (and fairy queens are difficult) to diversify in some way using national paths. A nation that summons a fairy queen is never going to be an air power. They'll still play very differently than Caelum or Tir. But the queen at least gives someone the option to get into air using nature, even if its in a very small way and late in the game. Aesir are another good example and a good unit. Just wish this design principal were taken a little further.

[Torgon]

Originally Posted by bbz

The way it is at the moment: you are not strong in astral but you have strong earth what can you do instead of mind hunt - Earth attack ,sure it takes 5E gems and its less cost effective than mind hunt but to compensate, on the field of battle you get army of lead/gold weapons of sharpness pertrify and loads of other nice buffs.

And I think this is good design principal. I'm just saying that I think it should be extended.

What you are saying is exactly right. Sure earth doesn't have mind hunt, but it does have an assassination spell. Its not as efficient, has different counters than mind hunt, etc. But it does have some way of remotely attacking commanders. If you really need to assassinate someone you have the option within earth. Most of the paths, and thus most of the nations have some way of pulling a remote assassination off. They all do it differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, but they all have the option.

All paths have thugs in some way, shape, or form. Some are better than others, some are more efficient than others. But they exist in each national path.

Most of the paths now have SC in some form. EDM makes a good effort at given all of the paths some sort of SC or equivalent, and does a great job of it. Once again, they're all different, with different role and that's great.

All paths can throw out evocs in some way. Sure, fire and air do it better and differently than water or nature. But Water and nature, if the the need arises, have options for throwing out battlefield damage. One thing CBM has explicitly tried to do is bump up nature in this regard.

All paths have troop summons of some sort. Some are better than others, some more efficient than others. But every path has some way to summon up stuff that hits things with swords, teeth, or other. It seems like one thing CBM has tried to do is to enhance the parity on this factor.

Then we come to summons with magical diversity. Which I'll argue is just as important as the other dimensions I've listed above. Not so that everyone can just beeline for the best of the best, but for key forgings, a few key spells, etc. If you want to use a summons to diversity magically you only have death. Its not that death does it better than the other paths, its not that death does it more efficiently, or that death does it differently in some way. Its that death is the only path that has the option. Giving a little magic diversity to other paths isn't going to turn Caelum into a fire nation, or Tir into an astral nation. It would simply give them the option for a little diversity without having to conjure up mages from beyond the grave.