MP: YARG3, non newb MA+ENP2 RAND game. Executor's Ulm winner on turn 76

[Valerius]

Interesting post-game analysis all around. One more question: what kind of usage did tarts get (particularly applies to the nation[s] that had the chalice/GoH)?


@rdonj: I'll have to look at the current Itza and see if I still have the OMFG reaction I first did (I refer to it as my Hinnom reaction ). But you bring up an interesting point with Pythium - maybe it's not so much that mod nations tend to be off-the-scale OP but that the average level of power is higher than the average level of power for base game nations? I also think they sometimes have too many "specials" (things like magic weapons, recuperation/healing, etc.) - these things are great because they help make nations unique but add too many of them and it gets to be too much. But I make no claim to be a mod nation expert so perhaps I'm wrong in my impressions.


Also, note to self: never have Cal sub for me. I can see the postgame commentary now:

"Supposedly Valerius is something of an idiot savant when it comes to glamour nations. I can now confirm the idiot portion of that description is accurate. Let's start with the W4 bless. This was probably taken because it will be a big help defensively when the thugs get swarmed. Or maybe because it will help the elite sacred troops Eriu doesn't have. After all, why take some S magic or even better scales when you can waste points on a useless bless? But through some fluke you may actually reach Constr. 8 first. Of course forging somewhat useful things like the chalice or gate stone will be out of the question since you've done nothing to diversify from your national magic. And even the things you can forge will have to wait a few turns since why bother forging the requisite boosters ahead of time so you're ready to go when you reach Constr. 8? Speaking of research, why have all your mages that aren't otherwise occupied actually research? Just for fun leave some of them on 'defend' orders. I've seen worse positions in my time - by newbs. Actually, many newbs play better than the incompetence on display here."

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Valerius

@rdonj: I'll have to look at the current Itza and see if I still have the OMFG reaction I first did (I refer to it as my Hinnom reaction ). But you bring up an interesting point with Pythium - maybe it's not so much that mod nations tend to be off-the-scale OP but that the average level of power is higher than the average level of power for base game nations? I also think they sometimes have too many "specials" (things like magic weapons, recuperation/healing, etc.) - these things are great because they help make nations unique but add too many of them and it gets to be too much. But I make no claim to be a mod nation expert so perhaps I'm wrong in my impressions.


Also, note to self: never have Cal sub for me. I can see the postgame commentary now:

"Supposedly Valerius is something of an idiot savant when it comes to glamour nations. I can now confirm the idiot portion of that description is accurate. Let's start with the W4 bless. This was probably taken because it will be a big help defensively when the thugs get swarmed. Or maybe because it will help the elite sacred troops Eriu doesn't have. After all, why take some S magic or even better scales when you can waste points on a useless bless? But through some fluke you may actually reach Constr. 8 first. Of course forging somewhat useful things like the chalice or gate stone will be out of the question since you've done nothing to diversify from your national magic. And even the things you can forge will have to wait a few turns since why bother forging the requisite boosters ahead of time so you're ready to go when you reach Constr. 8? Speaking of research, why have all your mages that aren't otherwise occupied actually research? Just for fun leave some of them on 'defend' orders. I've seen worse positions in my time - by newbs. Actually, many newbs play better than the incompetence on display here."

That reminds me of another thing that was removed from Itza, the magic weapons on all the recruitables that used to have them :P And from most of the sacred spawnings. Before the various nerfs to them Itza was probably the strongest non-Amos nation I've seen. Like, if pythium was a 10, Itza was probably a 12. Now it's probably more like an 8. Still strong, but actually comparable to real nations now. 8 may be overestimating them, even.

As for the power levels of mod nations in general - yes, that seems to be the predominant trend. I think there are a number of reasons this tends to be the case. Some are at least semi-conscious, others are not. For example, when experimenting with new ideas it's easy to come up with things that seem okay on first glance, but turn out to be horribly overpowered in practice. Like when sombre had the skaven commanders able to summon allies of various recruitables. Having recruit everywhere freespawn causes balance issues, but back when they actually had that ability, the community didn't realize how big of a problem they could be. Now we do :P And the skaven have become, IMO, probably the best quality mod nation we have right now. Thematic as hell, maybe even a little on the weak side, and so much fun to play. Well, for me anyway.

It can also be very hard to price things properly before seeing how the nation performs in real games with human opponents. So what usually happens is a mod nation comes out significantly stronger than intended and gets hit with the nerf stick a couple of times before it reaches a reasonable status. Mod nations just don't get as much testing as regular nations do, so it's little wonder if they're just a bit buggier. Don't let old-style Itza and stygia ruin your perception of all mods though. They're not really representative of the currently played mods.

Erm, sorry for going off on a mod-induced tangent. That wasn't a bad Calahan impersonation, but I think there's too much sarcasm. Calahan isn't so subtle... he's all about manifesting that vitriol

[WraithLord]

Valerius, now you know why I do all in my power not to need a sub


Executor: I admire how you managed all that MM. Not sure whether I could.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Valerius

"Supposedly Valerius is something of an idiot savant when it comes to glamour nations. I can now confirm the idiot portion of that description is accurate. Let's start with the W4 bless. This was probably taken because it will be a big help defensively when the thugs get swarmed. Or maybe because it will help the elite sacred troops Eriu doesn't have. After all, why take some S magic or even better scales when you can waste points on a useless bless? But through some fluke you may actually reach Constr. 8 first. Of course forging somewhat useful things like the chalice or gate stone will be out of the question since you've done nothing to diversify from your national magic. And even the things you can forge will have to wait a few turns since why bother forging the requisite boosters ahead of time so you're ready to go when you reach Constr. 8? Speaking of research, why have all your mages that aren't otherwise occupied actually research? Just for fun leave some of them on 'defend' orders. I've seen worse positions in my time - by newbs. Actually, many newbs play better than the incompetence on display here."

Lol, thanks for that Valerius, and it's duly been copied, pasted and saved for when I do one day sub for you. Yuo know, I could get used to this 'players writing my rants in advance' thing. As it'll save me a load of time if nothing else. Maybe from now on I'll start stipulating that as a requirement for me subbing... "Hi I'll sub for you if you like. Can you please give me a brief run-down on what's happening, oh and of course the obligatory rant that I would write five minutes after checking the position out. Thanks."

Also haven't forgotten about the PM's Val. Not had free Dom time for a while to get back to you properly (recently there seems to be a never ending flow of people who need ranting at which gets high priority for my free Dom time ). Two weeks is the usual turn around though isn't it? so I still have some time to play with

Originally Posted by Korwin

One thing I need to say:
Holy **** that was an impressive ~18 pages introduction to the game I got.

About 50% of those pages were guilt from YARG1, as I had to sub-out there in a very tricky position and promised rdonj a full write-up for my incoming sub on how to deal with it all. (as otherwise a quick death was certain). But RL took over and I didn't manage to provide even a single word of advice, so thought I'd make up for it this time The other 50% was trying to cover every angle of the position and the forthcoming Ulm war, as there was a lot going on when I left that needed mentioning. (plus rdonj told me my sub was a bit green, so thought the more info I could provide the better, which is why there is a lot of obvious stuff mentioned)

Not sure how relevant what I wrote was when you took over though, as it was written for my immediate successor, and I'm probably right in guessing a LOT changed between me leaving and you arriving.

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RE: Mod nations often being a bit OP.

I've found that one regular problem with mod nations ending up OP is that the creators pick bad choices for comparisons. ie. "This unit/summon was priced on nation X's unit/summon". As the tendency then is to pick 'one of the best' unit/summon to copy. Which ends up with the mod nation having the best value archers, best value HI, best value mages, best value summon etc etc, cherry picked from all the standard nations. With the obvious result being the nation becomes OP and with far too many good 'things' at their disposal. But maybe it's only me that's noticed that trend.

Originally Posted by rdonj

Calahan isn't so subtle... he's all about manifesting that vitriol

Yep, I no do subtle. I was forced to for a few years of my life. Never again. Hated every moment of it and it certainly wasn't 'me' at all. Vitriol is a type of cake isn't it? Hhhhhmmmmmm, cake

[Valerius]

Rdonj, I took a quick look at the current Itza (just recruitables, didn't have time to check out the summons) and I agree it's much better. In addition to the magic weapon changes (which are very significant) I see the cold-blooded tag has been extended to the Kroxigor as well (and I'm not sure that I realized just how severe the cold-blooded penalties were when we played Tourmaline). At a glance I'd agree they certainly have plenty of strengths but are much more reasonable.

Interesting observations regarding mod nation power. I think Cal's comment re: picking the best units from various nations as comparisons without necessarily considering the cumulative effect of this (and not necessarily having offsetting weaknesses) is also a good point. And it occurs to me that probably most nation modders are looking to create a strong nation rather than an average, let alone weak, nation. For one thing, they'd like their nation to be played and more people will shy away from playing an underpowered nation than a strong one.

I also wonder if other mod nations are used as a baseline and if those nations are strong you want yours to be competitive with them? I guess this would apply more to the Warhammer nations since they have shared theme but could apply to historical-themed nations as well.

Btw, aside from wariness about power level I'm not at all against mod nations and am actually quite impressed with many of them from the sprite work, to the imaginative themes, to the technical approaches to accomplish things (retinues, etc.).

All this is a bit off-topic but not horribly so since YARG 3 did include mod nations. And I've actually been meaning to ask about this for a while so I'm glad it came up.

Originally Posted by Calahan

Yep, I no do subtle. I was forced to for a few years of my life. Never again. Hated every moment of it and it certainly wasn't 'me' at all. Vitriol is a type of cake isn't it? Hhhhhmmmmmm, cake

Good point regarding sarcasm vs. vitriol. I probably put too much of my own personality in that post rather than staying in character.

Originally Posted by Calahan

Lol, thanks for that Valerius, and it's duly been copied, pasted and saved for when I do one day sub for you.

Yuo know, I could get used to this 'players writing my rants in advance' thing. As it'll save me a load of time if nothing else. Maybe from now on I'll start stipulating that as a requirement for me subbing... "Hi I'll sub for you if you like. Can you please give me a brief run-down on what's happening, oh and of course the obligatory rant that I would write five minutes after checking the position out. Thanks."

Glad you enjoyed it. Though it occurred to me afterwards that I might have had better material to work with if I'd gone with my FoB "Blood Elves" build. What? You don't think it's practical to turn Eriu into a blood powerhouse? Just think, during the endgame you might up to a half dozen empowered Claws-casting Bean Sidhe!

Also, I wonder how many people's self-assessment would match your verdict.

Originally Posted by Calahan

Also haven't forgotten about the PM's Val. Not had free Dom time for a while to get back to you properly (recently there seems to be a never ending flow of people who need ranting at which gets high priority for my free Dom time ).

Two weeks is the usual turn around though isn't it? so I still have some time to play with

No problem; given my rather relaxed responses to PMs I'm quite patient in return. And rants do need to be posted promptly - just doesn't have the same effect if you only post a few days later.