Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

[PvtJoker]

Infantry stuff:

As I wrote earlier, changed many sections to mixed bolt-action and SMG armament. Some still retain SMG or bolt-action only due to limited number of weapon slots.

No horse cavalry after WW2, I'm afraid. Officially the Finnish Dragoons were permanently dismounted in 1947 and became infantry, but in fact they did not have enough horses for all troopers after 1943. I converted the Dragoon units to infantry, so now they are basically just better than normal infantry, although there probably is not much basis for them being any better than average Finnish conscripts. They still get to call themselves dragoons, though...

Limited the number of units with 7.62mm RK 54 (AK-47). Only 25,000 of them were purchased in the 1950s. That said, whoever got the brilliant idea of separating all the AK action assault rifles chambered for 7.62x39mm cartridge in Finnish service to separate weapons in the game was way over-zealous. They all have the same specs in the game (except the versions with optical sights).

On a similar note, there are separate weapons entries for the DP-27 (also called DP-28 in some English sources) and DPM LMGs like there were significant enough differences between them which could be modeled in the game. The DP-27 also had too low accuracy; it had exactly the same length barrel as the DPM. In any case, all DPs captured by the Finnish Army in WW2 were DP-27s, so DPM should not appear at all. I will change the DPM to DP-27 which fixes the "problem".

Added 66 KeS 12 (M72 EC LAW Mk.I) for some infantry units from 2015. I also changed some of the the sections to 9 men with 2 PKM LMGs (doubled weapon) from the same date, according to a new squad and platoon level organization being adopted. The details are still a bit fuzzy, but 9 men squads with 3 fire teams seems fairly certain at this point.

Some additional trimming like removing a Marksman with a basic M/39 Rifle after 1994. Created a new DMR unit with an RK 95 with optics to replace it (As if there actually were enough ACOGs for any other units than special forces... )

Changed the names of some units to make more sense of many similar, but slightly different units with the same name and concurrent availability.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Concerning the XA-203 RWS 3rd Gen TI/GSR you can safely go to VISION 40. At the start of my equipment submissions a few years ago, Don and I had set some basic guidelines in my submitting equipment and data to include TI/GSR values, based on those discussions (I believe this can be found in the early Patch Thread Posts.) some advanced 2nd GEN (ABRAMS comes to mind here.) and all noted 3rd GEN TI/GSR systems should have a minimum value of 40 and some higher depending on the platform and references provided concerning the FCS. RWS are no exception to this at a range of 2000m. Just don't want you to "under sell" your equipment and their true capabilities.
Afterall this is not a game about Business but, a Wargame matching your representative OOB capabilities against your opponents, for better or worse.

Regards,
Pat

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Concerning the XA-203 RWS 3rd Gen TI/GSR you can safely go to VISION 40. At the start of my equipment submissions a few years ago, Don and I had set some basic guidelines in my submitting equipment and data to include TI/GSR values, based on those discussions (I believe this can be found in the early Patch Thread Posts.) some advanced 2nd GEN (ABRAMS comes to mind here.) and all noted 3rd GEN TI/GSR systems should have a minimum value of 40 and some higher depending on the platform and references provided concerning the FCS.
Regards,
Pat

Thank Pat. However, I must point out that the XA-203 does not have a TI sight but just an Image Intensifier (albeit a modern one). So Vision 30 is the correct choice.

[PvtJoker]

More tank stuff:

I increased the HE kill value of PKT machine guns to 8. The PKT has a higher rate of fire (750-800 rpm) than infantry PK(M). Any reputable source will confirm that.

Extended the availability of Comet, Charioteer and StuG 40 as "Reserve tanks". These vehicles were kept around for a long time after active crew training ended. It is not available in open sources when the army stopped maintaining them and how long ammo stocks were preserved.

The last of the British tanks were auctioned off in 2007 along with some StuGs. At that stage they were in fairly bad shape visually, but probably could have been restored to running condition relatively quickly if the SHTF, so to speak.

In any case, the Comets were always classified as training tanks and at least officially they had no combat role even in the 1960s. I personally do not buy that, however, since just a few years earlier technically inferior WW2 vehicles were still considered combat-worthy. Classifying them purely as training vehicles was probably politically motivated. Before the purchase of T-55s in 1966 Finland had more British tanks (Comet & Charioteer) than Soviet ones (T-54 & PT-76) and in the balancing act of the cold war that would have been a Bad Thing.

[shahadi]

I don't have an interest in Finnish "this or that" at this point and don't anticipate having one; however, I read your fascinating posts for the education and apparent due diligence that your posts exhibit each and every time. I see a post authored by PvtJoker, I read it!

Good job.

[dmnt]

PvtJoker, nice to see someone else from Finland!

I've been bothering the authors for a long time over here and I'm making my own suggestions list for the future. I'd love to work together with you since I lack serious information on 50's-80's stuff and I have - by trial, error and Don's judgement - learned the fine line between authenticity and game mechanics. If you're interested, just drop me a PM and we can exchange email addresses. I thought I'd do it during the summer when I have free time but it turned out that I really didn't and I had to prioritize.

Quick note about "Musti", I've been trying to find any reliable source for the ammunition being DC-HEAT, but failed. If you can find any documentation to back that up it'd be great!

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by dmnt

PvtJoker, nice to see someone else from Finland!

Quick note about "Musti", I've been trying to find any reliable source for the ammunition being DC-HEAT, but failed. If you can find any documentation to back that up it'd be great!

Sorry, real life kept me from answering to this thread earlier. About the the Musti: the warhead is not technically dual charge, but instead it has a hard steel penetrator cap that will trigger at least "light" or 1st generation ERA tiles just early enough that the HEAT "jet" will not be disrupted significantly. Its real life performance against so called "heavy" ERA is unknown. Some have estimated that it won't work at all since the projectile does not have enough kinetic energy to trigger the ERA, but others think that it might work partially. Anyways, it's just guesses unless you have real expertise on relevant fields, which I certainly do not have...

From the point of game mechanics, classifying the 95 Okr of the Musti as DC-HEAT is still quite okay, because heavy ERA is more likely to resist DC-HEAT charges in the game.

For official source I recommend old versions of www.puolustusvoimat.fi from Wayback machine, which have more information that the current pages.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Limited the number of units with 7.62mm RK 54 (AK-47). Only 25,000 of them were purchased in the 1950s. That said, whoever got the brilliant idea of separating all the AK action assault rifles chambered for 7.62x39mm cartridge in Finnish service to separate weapons in the game was way over-zealous. They all have the same specs in the game (except the versions with optical sights).
.

Given that ONLY FINNS have contributed to the Finn OOB it would be ( surprise... surprise.... surprise....) another Finn ( once again..) trying to cram every last weapon used by the Finns into the Finn OOB

If there was room I would change the Info line to read

Version March 2014(C)2014 Rami Sihvo, J.Vihavainen & every last Finn who has ever opened up MOBHack & The Camo Workshop

[dmnt]

I started to document the possible changes or "could-be-inclusions" collected into a spreadsheet, visible here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...8yPaBM/pubhtml
Trying to include the sources over there as well, currently they're pretty terse.

PvtJoker, I'd very much appreciate if you could chip in. If you can send me your email address in private message I'll grant you edit rights. Or anyone else who wants to contribute or have a say. After looking thru a lot of documents last night (Including the now outdated 1994 antitank combat manual publicly available for any Finnish speaking reader) there's a lot of stuff to comb thru - for example 1994 manual lists laser range finders as 58-61 S 95 platoon equipment. Still some stuff like S 95 being out of service at some point between 2000-2005 before getting the hardened tip ammo back and reinstating it as an effective weapon... definitive dates are just simply missing here!

[dmnt]

One vital question about vision and rangefinders in the game:

Apilas sections for AT Co/Pl have in 1994 equipment listing night vision scope (1 / section, image intensifier type) and laser range finders (1 / section).

AT combat manual, in Finnish p. 214

For S 95 platoons it simply lists "a range finder" (p. 204) which I presume is an optical one.

The question: Should the LRF be added at all to these teams or will it break game balance either by making them too expensive without any added value or by making them supersoldiers who take down a tank just by looking at it?