Polish LWP OOB09 (v.8.1)

[Pibwl]

Some notes as for the Polish People's Army


13 T-34/76 M1943 - M1943 were received apparently in 11/43 only (precisely, 22.10.43, but should be available from 11/43, after battle of Lenino in 10/43) (now 7/43)

21 IS-85 - J.Magnuski doesn't mention, that IS-85 were used in Polish units. Sure typical heavy tank was IS-2.

26 M4A2 (76) - Shermans aren't known to be used by the LWP (maybe single ones for training)

27 SU-57 - there was no DShK AAMG. There could be DP LMG, although Magnuski claims, that secondary armament were 5 rifles... Main weapon was in fact US 57mm M1 gun. Max speed was 72 km/h (24), just like of US halftrack. Same for Soviet unit 88.

31,32 SU-85 - there was no DShK AAMG (it was a heavy weapon and could fit only on heavy tanks and heavy SPGs). There is no difference between these units, apart from inexplicable lower ROF.

33,34 SU-100 - there was no DShK, hence there is no justification for two entries. SU-100 was not a typical equipment in Polish units - most probably a couple of vehicles for training only.

35 ISU-122 - delivered from 10/44 only, hence this unit redundant (there is unit 36 already)

37 ISU-122s - it isn't clear, but I'd say, that ISU-122s were delivered after the war only (1/46?). And there are no wartime photos.
J. Magnuski claimed, that ISU-122s had 20 rounds of ammo, but according to a detailed Russian Wikipedia page (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%...0%A3-122%D0%A1 ) it was 30, like in ordinary ISU-122. It would be strange to accept improved SPG with 1/3 less ammo...

ISU-122 and ISU-122s should have different gun - ISU-122s had D-25 (precisely D-25S, not T for tanks), while ISU-122 should have A-19S gun (with the same ballistics, but lower ROF - which is already reflected in OOB)

I'm not sure if I'll review the Soviet OOB, so I'll deal with Soviet ISU-122 here: (36,91 ISU-122, 234,304 ISU-122s)
- all have too much ammo (should be 30), and ROF 6, which is much too much for ISU-122, and for ISU-122s possibly as well (Polish have 4/5)
Max ROF for ISU-122s was 6 rds, practical 3-4. I can find no figures for ISU-122, but it was sure no more, than 3 max (the gun had screw breech). For comparison, max ROF of IS-2 with D-25 gun and single loader, was only 3 rds, practical even less (there is 5-6 in the Soviet OOB, what seems too much as well - the same for IS-III). In Polish LWP there is 4 for IS-2. BTW, in Soviet sources these tanks are invariably known as IS-2, IS-3, not IS-II, IS-III.

BTW: Soviet SU-152 and ISU-152 also have too much ROF 5 (Polish have 3), while they could shoot 1-2 rds/min.

38 SU-152 - weren't used as typical equipment, a couple for training only

41 ISU-152 - photo is SU-152, should be 21026 for a Polish one, or a better quality shot is here http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Luka...su152.jpg.html

46 M3A1 Scout Car - no DShk was used on such light vehicles. It could have original .50 and .30 MGs, or Soviet lighter ones.

50 SdKfz 250/10 - there is a photo of a Polish one http://www.sokol.slupsk.pl/Polskie_koty/8.jpg or with more prominent eagle http://vader.joemonster.org/upload/z...ol_Sd250pl.jpg

53 SU-75 - I've found a photo http://modelstory.stronazen.pl/wp-co...-model-LWP.jpg
They were rather used without side screens.
In Polish reports they were known as T-3 (75mm)

54 SU-38 Hetzer- in Polish reports they were known as T-38 (75mm)

117 Wz.30 HMG[2] - wz.30 HMGs were not used by the LWP

150-151 76.2mm Howitzer - photo is wz.43 (M1943) infantry gun, and weapon's name wz.27/39 suggest M1927 infantry gun, which is already available as unit #221 76.2mm obr27 IG.
There were no obr.27/39 field guns, and Polish army used only ZiS-3 guns at this stage of war (unit #146), so it should be changed to infantry gun, not off-map arty.
I suggest to change it to wz.43 gun, accordingly to a photo - it had max range 4200 m.

158 122mm Howitzer - better icon is twin-tail 2165 (like in Soviet oob). Precisely weapon's name should be wz.31/37

159 122mm Battery - should be class off-map heavy arty

164 25mm AA-Gun - wrong photo, should be 27865 like in the Soviet oob

177,178 Jeep, GAZ-67 - in fact their availability should be swapped (a production of GAZ-67 only started in 9/43).
BTW, it's worth to add GAZ-67 to Soviet oob; or also earlier model GAZ-64 produced from 8/41

179 Dodge - an interesting photo of a Dodge towing mortar http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsfo...w_radomiu..jpg and 76mm gun http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsfo...ezis3_1945.jpg

180 Studebaker - much better is Soviet photo 9270

182 JA-12 - it has an inappropriate icon - as for now I've found better 588
The name was precisely Ja-12.
It could be also added to the Soviet oob

183 S-80 Stalinec - green icon 787 is better (as in Soviet oob)

187 Jak-1M - the 1st fighter regiment completed training in 5/44 (now 8/44 - date of first combat usage). Would need a change in formation.

188 Jak-1M - twin 7.62mm MGs was an armament of early Yak-1, but hey were apparently not used in Polish units as frontline equipment.
It isn't clear, if they could carry bombs at all - I suggest to change 188 to strafing only variant with guns like 187.

189 Jak-3 was very untypical in Polish units - few were used, and it could be removed, especially, that it is a strafing fighter.

190 - Jak-7 were used only for training, not as a standard frontline equipment.

192 Jak-9W - variant with 37mm gun should be 9T (W was a trainer, armed with one MG). A rare one however.

193 Jak-9P - P was an interceptor variant from 1949 - should be renamed to Jak-9M, which was a basic fighter from 1/45. Gun armament is OK.
According to A. Morgała, bombs should be 100 kg. It could be doubled as a strafing fighter (eg replacing Jak-7).

219 Taczanka - better icon is 3491 and picture 29520. It should have one MG (although I haven't heard, that there were used taczankas at that stage of war at all...)

221 76.2mm obr27 IG - unit 276 and Soviet OOb use icon 2109

234 "Ptaszki" class - proper name is Jaskolka class.

235 BTSZCZ class - better name is Kormoran class

237 Patrol Boat - in fact, typical armament of patrol boats were ordinary 7.62 Maxims

281 AOP Light Truck - it's better to change it to AOP jeep (pic 29361, icon 3213/15) - 6x6 Dodges were unknown in Polish service.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

234 "Ptaszki" class - proper name is Jaskolka class.

235 BTSZCZ class - better name is Kormoran class

234 - I've found its own icon 3490 (made by Blazejos, I guess?)

Then, 235 can get icon 708 (better than current one)

234 should have an armament of two twin 20mm Flak and a single 20mm Flak. A nice photo is here http://www.kozmice.pl/images/rybitwa_03.jpg

It's worth to add this unit also added to Polish OOB02, available 9/35-9/39, along with new formation (say "Minesweeper") - they actually shelled German units from the sea. Armament then was one #33 75mm wz.1897 FG and two #205 7.92 wz.08 AAMG
If it is added to OOB02, then better picture for both entries is pre-war http://www.1939.pl/uzbrojenie/polski...rp-rybitwa.jpg

For OOB02 there could be also added another LCG: Kanonierka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_General_Haller ) with basically the same data, but 2 x 75mm guns and two AAMGs, available 1/30-9/39. Icon could be 679. Photos are http://images.ioh.pl/artykuly/poczatkiPMW_1/2.jpg http://www.naviearmatori.net/albums/...aller-01~0.jpg or there is similar Finnish vessel PM23563.lbm
BTW: the same ship can be added to Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_gunboat_Karjala )


238 Guardship - better photo is 20534

[blazejos]

unit 21 IS-85 in LWP know as JS-1 (Józef Stalin-1) polish transliteration was in fact in small number used in LWP training school first in Riazań and then moved to Rembertów near Warszawa. Probably adding a new Training tanks purchase option may solve problem. That is why this unit was added to orginal LWP OOB. My source was "Wozy Bojowe LWP 1943-1983" by Janusz Magnuski

26 M4A2 (76) There were added because also I found in the same book that Scherman's in short period temporary was used during fight in Gdańsk (Danzig) in 1945 with polish crews they were given by soviet unit just for street fighting and then returned back to owners. But of course except this short period of battle usage some Sherman's belongs to training school in Riazań or was was given for exercises by soviets.




There is a also Sherman in LWP unit description LWP on German soil so small number was again used in May-July 1945 meaby was transferred from tanks school or soviet units to replace loses.
http://s124.photobucket.com/user/bol...544e6.png.html


27 SU-57 That was an error to add soviet machine-guns what I read and also soviet units photos suggest usually in leand-lase equipment American MG was retained ad used. So if they were rearmed that were because repairs etc. so soviet MG on them was rare the same with 46 M3A1 Scout Car as was mentioned earlier

33,34 SU-100 as you correctly guess was described only in training unit in small number in Rembertów not used by front-line divisions more after war 1946 were used in bigger number as standard equipment.

38 SU-152 was obsolete in 1944 and small number also in tanks school.


In school unit were also three T-60 used to end of 1945 and small number of KW-1 & five KW-85 obsolete used only for training.

source based on mentioned book and this link http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.p...e/page__st__40

About Taczanka there were mentioned in polish LWP cavalry units until 1951 look on this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...light=Taczanka I spouse that was soviet standardised M1928 and soviet units also used them well into 1950 LWP was a copy of soviet organisation and equipment btw.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by blazejos

unit 21 IS-85 in LWP know as JS-1 (Józef Stalin-1) polish transliteration was in fact in small number used in LWP training school first in Riazań and then moved to Rembertów near Warszawa. Probably adding a new Training tanks purchase option may solve problem. That is why this unit was added to orginal LWP OOB. My source was "Wozy Bojowe LWP 1943-1983" by Janusz Magnuski

Quickly browsing, I couldn't find IS-1 in this book. Anyway, does it make sense to make available vehicles, that were used in small quantities in rear schools only and weren't meant to fight?... It concerns also SU-152 and Shermans in schools below.

BTW: it might have been known in some documents as JS-1, however all current Polish sources call it correctly IS-1 (along with quoted Magnuski), so the worst thing to do would be to change IS to JS tanks in the Polish oob

26 M4A2 (76) There were added because also I found in the same book that Scherman's in short period temporary was used during fight in Gdańsk (Danzig) in 1945 with polish crews they were given by soviet unit just for street fighting and then returned back to owners. But of course except this short period of battle usage some Sherman's belongs to training school in Riazań or was was given for exercises by soviets.

There is a also Sherman in LWP unit description LWP on German soil so small number was again used in May-July 1945 meaby was transferred from tanks school or soviet units to replace loses.
http://s124.photobucket.com/user/bol...544e6.png.html

The last photo is interesting. Although this eagle looks suspicious (such size)... Anyway, it rather shouldn't be available as standard medium tank to choose. AFAIK there are no details known about their usage (and whether they were actually used), apart from this photo... I can't find any mention about Shermans in Magnuski's book, unless there is some other issue. Personally I'd remove it.

27 SU-57 That was an error to add soviet machine-guns what I read and also soviet units photos suggest usually in leand-lase equipment American MG was retained ad used. So if they were rearmed that were because repairs etc. so soviet MG on them was rare the same with 46 M3A1 Scout Car as was mentioned earlier

Yes, there were .30 and .50 MGs used, but SU-57 didn't carry any auxiliary MG. The Soviets had no equivalent to mount on pintle mounts anyway.

33,34 SU-100 as you correctly guess was described only in training unit in small number in Rembertów not used by front-line divisions more after war 1946 were used in bigger number as standard equipment.

I've tried to find info on Polish usage of SU-100 while working on SPMBT, and apart from general statements, that "bigger numbers of SU-100" were bought in late 40s and 50s", there are no details - and I suspect, there were none apart from a couple of vehicles.

To quote myself from SPMBT forum: in 1949 there existed only two "pattern vehicles" [Poligon 3/2010]. In 1955, a total number of 51 SU-85 and SU-100 is given, what corresponds with 50 SU-85 and 2 SU-100 in 1949 [same source]. In 1960 there are mentioned only 43 SU-85 in inventory. There is also no information on further import of SU-100, only of heavy SP-guns and SU-76s.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Small amendments:

276 76.2mm obr27 IG - a name should be changed to 76.2mm wz.27 IG

291 BM-13 Katjusza - in Polish it's BM-13 Katiusza

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

182 JA-12 - it has an inappropriate icon - as for now I've found better 588
The name was precisely Ja-12.
It could be also added to the Soviet oob

There is a great icon 3058 in SPMBT
For the Soviet OOb it should naturally be Ya-12 (from around 11/43)
Speed was only 38 km/h

On the other hand, I have some doubts as for artillery tractors in general. Tractors like Ya-12, Stalinets were generally meant for heavy artillery only (122 mm or more), and they were never used with mortars or AT guns... We have to rely on wisdom of players, buying units.

Also for SU-57 there is a nice icon 2953 in SPMBT, with a gunshield.

[DRG]

Yes, I KNOW Michael.......please go back into hibernation until the next patches are released. You're telling me things I already know and I've got more than enough to keep me busy for the next few months as it is

Don

[DRG]

[quote=Pibwl;832403]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There is a great icon 3058 in SPMBT
For the Soviet OOb it should naturally be Ya-12 (from around 11/43)
Speed was only 38 km/h

..........and what do you think 13 is???.

38 divided by 3 = 12.6 which rounds UP to 13

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

..........and what do you think 13 is???.

38 divided by 3 = 12.6 which rounds UP to 13

In Poland LWP oob I see speed 15...

[DRG]

It's 13 in all 5 of the MBT OOB's that use it which is where I was looking as that's the game you were referring to in the post