Bulgarian OOB19 v.9

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

*******134 Aero MB 210 *Bulgarian Air Force received six aircraft from Germany"...it stays now as Bloch MB210

QUOTE:Après l’armistice, 120 MB 210 sont dénombrés en zone non occupée et vingt en Afrique du Nord. 37 sont capturés par les Allemands en 1942, dont six sont cédés à la Bulgarie .

That's interesting. Personally I doubt it, for Bulgarian book doesn't know about this type, and surely in 1942 they were fit for nothing more but training (Bulgarians would sure prefer more Do 17s...) - but since the Germans managed to sell them H-39 tanks in 1944, everything is possible...

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The tanks are quite carefully made in this OOB, but I have a few comments:

01 Vickers 6 Ton - according to a Vickers monograph Tank Power series and this Russian page http://alternathistory.com/bronetank...-mirovoi-voine , first were delivered on 4 January 1938, rest in July 1938 (now 1/37 - such year can be met in some articles).
CMG was 8 mm Schwarzlose according to a monograph. Same for unit 282.

02 Ansaldo L.3/33 - when they were sold, they were designated CV-33, but according to https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carro_Veloce_L3/33 they were just known as "Ansaldo-Fiat" (bg.wikipedia pages on tanks have usually separate paragraphs on Bulgarian service, which seem quite reliable, and among sources there is mentioned K. Matev "Бронетанкова техника 1935 – 1945"). Same for unit 283.

03 Skoda Pz 35 (t) - they were known just as Skoda tanks (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT_vz.35) - I guess that Skoda LT vz.35 would be more appropriate, than Pz.35.

04 PzKw 35R 731(f) - there's no page on bg.wikipedia, but I can bet they were known just as Renaults (or even "Reno", like https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0...%BD%D0%BE_FT17) R-35, not PzKpfw.
All publications say, they were grey - icon 1410 is better, especially, that a single known photo shows the tank with a tail. It also shows, that it had a short SA-18 gun, not SA-38.
Same for unit 284, save the camouflage, which might have been green indeed by then.

08 PzKw V - in Bulgaria known as "Pantera"(https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerkampfwagen_V)

09 JPz38(t) Hetzer - in Bulgaria known as Praga assault gun - maybe SO Praga (SO - Shtormovo oridye, assault gun) https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AF...86%D0%B5%D1%80

10 PzKw IVg - in Bulgaria known as Maybach. Initially they were in Wehrmacht olive or Dunkelgelb sand color (as manufactured - icon 1409), only from 1945 they were painted Soviet green - https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerkampfwagen_IV

11 Skoda T-11 - delivered in 9/40 according to a Polish article, or in 10/40 according to https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/LT_vz.35 (now 7/40)

14 StuH 42 - I could find info in any articles, that Bulgaria used StuH 42; there's no mention on https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A9...D1%86%D0%B5_42 either

15 PzKw 39H 735(f) - known just as Hotchkiss (may be also H-39). A preserved tank has short SA-18 gun https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_H35

16 JPz IV/70A - according to https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AF...D0%B5%D1%80_IV only one JgPz IV/70 was used (but in ordinary V variant, not Alkett), and one JgPz IV/48. The photo is IV/48.
(They were green, but I know it's not too important to bother...)

It is now in a formation 075 with a single Stug, there might be IV/48 added instead.

287 JPz IV/70A - same as above, but class Assault Gun after 6/45. There is a danger, that a battery with seven such vehicles can be taken... A Polish article says they had 15 Jpz IV in 1946, but I'd rather believe Bulgarian Wikipedia, which describes further fates of both machines.
Same for 288 JPz38(t) Hetzer - there were only four, and 017 Scafo L-40 - only two (although I couldn't find confirmation, that it was this type - there is a mention about two "SPA" vehicles in an article on Turan tank https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2...B0%D0%BD%D0%BA).

I don't know if there is a sense to gather all these vehicles after 6/45 in a common Assault gun class - maybe it's better to keep them separated, like in 3/45-5/45?
Moreover, on a page https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2...B0%D0%BD%D0%BA) there is a mention, that 4 Hetzers and 5 other SP-guns formed a SP-gun battery within the 1st Army. The others were surely 2 Jpz IV and maybe 3 Stugs?.. or a command Turan and two L-40, although they are said to create a recce platoon?
Maybe it's worth to create in 3/45 and keep until the end such mixed unit, instead of formation 12 Assault Gun Bty?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's interesting. Personally I doubt it, for Bulgarian book doesn't know about this type, and surely in 1942 they were fit for nothing more but training (Bulgarians would sure prefer more Do 17s...) - but since the Germans managed to sell them H-39 tanks in 1944, everything is possible...

Maybe they were only used for training.......maybe not but keep in mind we are talking about an unit type ---level bomber------ that few people use in an OOB even fewer use so try to contain your natural desire to nitpick unimportant details that just make work for me. It's in, there's a dedicated Icon for it.....it flys over and drops bombs that go BOOM......and anyone interested in micro details can decide if they want to use it or not


Lets run a little survey

1/ HAS ANYONE EVER USED THE LEVEL BOMBERS IN THE BULGARIAN OOB IN A GAME ??

2/ HAS ANYONE EVER PLAYED BULGARIA AS P1 OR AS AN OPPONENT ??

Michel, you really scraping the bottom of the barrel nitpicking Bulgaria......You are arguing whether the introduction date for a Skoda T-11 is 7/40 as we have it....or 9/40 becasue you have a polish article that says that and I can't verify.......or 10/40 that a Bulgarian Wiki claims is correct and we don't know where that info comes from and they might be referring to when the units were organized into formations in the army and our info might be referring to when the train carrying them arrived in Bulgaria.....it could be either but it's largely irrelevant--- different sources will ALWAYS differ.......... and on top of that Bulgaria never entered the war for nearly another YEAR ! ( for what it was worth......they only joined so they could get a piece of Greece.....and they didn't even participate !! )

I'd be "thrilled " to find out if anyone actually plays as Bulgaria let alone uses the level bombers.....the ONLY reason there are so many in there is in my spare time I like modeling aircraft Icons.....when I actually HAVE "spare time"


Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

2/ HAS ANYONE EVER PLAYED BULGARIA AS P1 OR AS AN OPPONENT ??


....

I'd be "thrilled " to find out if anyone actually plays as Bulgaria let alone uses the level bombers.....the ONLY reason there are so many in there is in my spare time I like modeling aircraft Icons.....when I actually HAVE "spare time"

Well, I'm sure there are some Bulgarians, who play Bulgaria

We admire your icons
It's the thing I can't do.

I didn't vote to remove MB-210 in last post, it was only my opinion.

BTW, as for Dornier 11 - it's hard to find any color drawing, but it seems they were grey http://modelingmadness.com/review/preww2/attarddo11.htm (although the model there uses late markings)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

.

BTW, as for Dornier 11 - it's hard to find any color drawing, but it seems they were grey http://modelingmadness.com/review/preww2/attarddo11.htm (although the model there uses late markings)

Yes, I know

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

Yes, I know

Beautiful
Only one thing: it may be worth to change X markings to pre-war ones. I've found only one photo, which vaguely shows markings on wings:

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

I didn't vote to remove MB-210 in last post, it was only my opinion.

New source I found says

Bloch MB.210
This low-wing monoplane bomber served with Romania, but not Bulgaria.

We have info that 6 were passed to Bulgaria by the Gemrans but then they seem to have vanished......It's possible that Bulgaria sold them to the Romanians but equally possible that the original info that 6 were passed on to Bulgaria.....got the country wrong and it was Romania they were passed to..EITHER could be correct but the evidence is stacking up that they were NOT used by the Bulgarians even if they HAD been given 6 by the Germans....so I've pulled it from the OOB

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by DRG

I'd be "thrilled " to find out if anyone actually plays as Bulgaria let alone uses the level bombers.....

I think that I have at some point played a late war scenario that comes with the game that pits Germans against a joint attack by Bulgarians and Soviets. Cannot recall the name or number for that one. But that is probably the only time I have played a game involving Bulgarians. I have taken a glance at their OOB at some point, however.

As for level bombers (in any OOB), I tend to find them rather uninteresting gaming-wise.

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

I think that I have at some point played a late war scenario that comes with the game that pits Germans against a joint attack by Bulgarians and Soviets. Cannot recall the name or number for that one. But that is probably the only time I have played a game involving Bulgarians. I have taken a glance at their OOB at some point, however.

The scenario in question is #101, and it's the only one involving Bulgaria.

I've also played a generated campaign with Bulgaria as one of the opponents. They're about on-par with the Italians - low morale and experience, poorly equipped infantry, 75mm guns, tankettes and Panzer 38s mostly. They do get stronger in late 1944, when they start getting Panzer IVs and StuGs.


As an aside, one notable historical battle involving the Bulgarians - which would perhaps make an interesting scenario - took place on 17th September 1944, when the Bulgarian Armoured Brigade was advancing near Pirot, Serbia. It attacked the German 1st Mountain Division and got thoroughly trounced, losing an entire company of Panzer IVs (10 tanks) to a single German 88mm gun!

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by zastava128

The scenario in question is #101, and it's the only one involving Bulgaria.

Yep, that's the one - I re-discovered it myself yesterday and gave it another try, resulting in marginal victory. It is a pretty fun little scenario to play as the Germans, with a few surprises taking place...

[warhorse]

This from the book "Armored Vehicles 1935-1945" by Kaloyan Matev, Equipment and Armor in the Bulgarian Army.I will list the Bulgarian name given to them, and any relevant info

01 Vickers 6 Ton-Usually all mediums called 'tank', then name. tank "Vickers" (Model E, variant B, 50 rounds 47mm QFSA, 4000 rounds 7.92 Vickers). There were 8 total, ordered in 1936, and finally delivered in the beginning of 1937, to be used in the Second Tank Company.

02 Ansaldo L.3/33-Light tank "Ansaldo-Fiat" or just "Ansaldo". Fitted with one 8mm Schwarzlose MG with 1800 rounds. March 1935 they were formed into the First Tank Company of 14 vehicles.

Both of the above were usually not in a combined "Battalion", rather broken up into platoons amongst Infantry units, two groups of 7 Ansaldo,one for the Motorised Division, one for the covering Front, and one group of the 8 Vickers for the Army HQ.

03 Skoda Pz 35 (t)-Tank "Skoda"/"Skoda T-11" first 26 supplied in Feb-April 1940, then 10 more in Aug-October 1940, although only 7 are received intitially, the other three arrive in Jan 1941. Interestingly the lot of ten in the second set, are better armed with the A7 gun instead of the A3, they were supposed to go to Afghanistan in 1938, but the German occupation of Czech territory prevents the transaction. They are purchased by Bulgaria instead! So, the first set of 26 are fererred to as just "Skoda", the 10 others are also called "Skoda", or sometimes "Skoda T-11". Formed Third Tank Company.

04 PzKw 35R 731(f)-Tank "Renault"40 tanks supplied to Bulgaria from trophy in May 1941, all armament stock French.They are not used in action and stored for awhile until later in 1941.SA-18 L/21 37mm gun 58 rounds gun, 2500 MG.

08 PzKw V-Tank "Panther"T-V one trophy unit supplied from the Soviets in March 1945 from Shiklosh Station, along with 14 other various trophy tanks.Eventually in March 1941 there are a total of 15 various makes of Panther, none fire a shot in combat before wars end.

09 JPz38(t) Hetzer-Assault Gun "Praga" 4 units trophy from Soviets in March 1945 with others from Shiklosh Station.

10 PzKw IVg-All Panzer IV models called Tank "Maybach"T-IV, total of 97 supplied from Germany period May 1943-Feb 1944 under the Barbara program. More as trophy from Soviets later. All marks.

11 Skoda T-11-Covered above under Skoda, called Tank "Skoda", or Tank "Skoda T-11" 10 total units.

14 StuH 42-Assault Howitzer 10.5cm, chassis number#1503, one vehicle.Soviet Trophy.

15 PzKw 39H 735(f)-Tank "Hotchkiss"19 supplied from Germany in Feb 1944.SA-18 L/21 gun, 100 rounds gun, 2400 MG.Relegated to the Gendarmerie for anti-partisan work.

16 JPz IV/70A-Assault Gun "Maybach T-IV" 2 units, part of the 13 trophy vehicles from Shiklosh Station.Lists as using the 7.5cm StuK42 L/70.

StuG III should be called Assault Gun "Maybach T-III"

Anyway, not splitting hairs, if there is any interest, I can touch up nomenclature as I have the books.Also for tractors, trucks, and have oob's for Bulgarian Army.