Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)

[Pibwl]

It just needed to be written - half of these notes waited on my HDD from release 7 There are some weird things in this oob. Thank you for your patience.

[Pibwl]

Small supplement:

78, 431 SMV M.43 105L25 - it has too much armour (now 9/5/3/9/5/3/2) - according to Military Vehicle Prints 36 by Nicola Pignato, armour was:
- hull 50 (at 35 deg, but photos suggest some 50-55 deg)/25/25,
- turret: 75 (vertical)/25 (at 75 deg)/25.
Basic icon should be green 1910 (now it has too long barrel).


344 Sz Breda 13.2mm, 657 Breda 13.2mm MG - it doesn't seem, that 13.2mm Breda was used by ground army, especially in HMG role - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Mod._31 . It was basically a naval weapon and I've found no sign of it being used on ground tripod or other portable base. It's doubtful, that it supplemented or replaced 8mm MGs from 1943.

350 M-15 Quadrupolo - original designation is M15/42 Carro Contraereo (in short M.42 Contraereo or M15/42 CA, I suppose). Entered service only in 3/43 - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M15/42 (apparently 1 or 2 prototypes only).
It had no BMG

502 CV-38 - "it was not until mid-1942 when Ansaldo started modifying 200 tankettes with the new suspension"

505 CV-38/Brixia ...

371,502 CV-38 - it's worth to give it a real picture of CV-38, eg. http://farm9.static.flickr.com/8421/...befbd9ee29.jpg
(it was an unofficial designation for a variant with modified suspension, precisely L.38 - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/CV33)

It's better to rename 505 CV-38/Brixia to CV-35/Brixia - used earlier and more popular.

From 1939 CV-33 and 35 were renamed to L3/33 and L3/35 - maybe it would be good to introduce models with a new name, for a historical taste? We'll need CV-33 with 6.5mm MG only until 1938, early CV-35 until 1938, and from 1938 a single model L3/35 will be enough. Or it might be named L3-33/35 (form used eg. in Squadron/Signal book), or just L.3.
The same for flamethrower variant.
Other variants with special armament (L.3/Solothurn, 505 L.3/Brixia, 506 L.3 [13.2]) should have only new names. Also L.38 could be retained, although its only difference was a new suspension (and maybe higher speed? Though I couldn't find info).
Units 500-501, 503-504 can be replaced with these new ones.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

From 1939 CV-33 and 35 were renamed to L3/33 and L3/35 - maybe it would be good to introduce models with a new name, for a historical taste?

Correction - it was from 1938, though popular publications don't tell exactly when. Maybe 1/38 was a border.

It seems, that L 3-33 form is quite widespread, also in books - I always used L 3/33. As for plural, I've found both L 3-33/35 and L 3/33-35. Seems, that most publications use "L 3" with a space, rather not "L.3".

[Griefbringer]

On an unrelated note, I happened to be taking a look at Italian weapons today, and noticed some odd values. Here is a list of them - these should be pretty straightforward to handle.

1.) Weapon 12 (37mm L33 Mod.21) has HE kill 2, while other 37 mm guns have HE kill 1.

2.) Weapon 61 (Obice da 75L18) has warhead size 5, HE penetration 3 and HE kill 11. Other 75 mm guns have warhead size 4, HE penetration 2 and HE kill 5.

3.) Weapons 64 (90mm L53 Mod.21) and 65 (90mm L53 Mod.39) have HE penetration 3, while weapon 90 (90mm Mod.39 HE) has HE penetration 4.
I would rather expect HE penetration 2 for all of these guns.

4.) Weapon 72 (105mm M6 Mrtaio) has HE penetration 1. I would usually expect HE penetration 2 for mortars of this calibre.

5.) Weapon 79 (Ansaldo 149L17) has HE penetration 4, while other 149 mm guns in this OOB have HE penetration 3.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

349,359-361 - French tanks - I don't expect the Italians to bother with changing original MGs to own obsolete 6.5mm ones...
Some photos of Italian R35 and S35 can be found here http://www.italie1935-45.com/forum/v...php?f=10&t=389

I'm attaching a photo of R-35

[Pibwl]

One more thing: unit 348 Fiat 3000 L5/30 (class Tank Destroyer) should be IMO removed. It uses a strange gun L/33, while other Fiat 3000 L5/30 #514 and 533 (in other classes) use correct Vickers Terni L/40 gun. I've found no info, that L/33 guns were used - and it is much weaker, while this unit is supposed to be a tank destroyer (with 30 rounds of ammo, btw)

As for two later ones: they carried only 68 rounds (now 160), according to "Carri armati" book.

[Pibwl]

Only one photo error (Fiat 611) and a few simple things:

487 SPA-38 20/65 - photo is a truck with Solothurn AT rifle(?). Better is 3652 (Dovunque with 20mm) or I'm attaching SPA with AA gun.

492,493 Fiat 611 - photo should be 16053 (now it's Soviet BA-27)

497 TL-37 75L27 - photo is 47mm Autocannone - I'm attaching several proposals of a proper vehicle with 75mm gun.

564 Centro Radia OA - photo in fact is Cingoletta carrier prototype, I'm attaching Carro Commando L40.

715 SMV M.42 OA - there was no twin 13mm TMG - it should be a single weapon 233, same as unit 566


371, 502 L 3-38 - available publications don't mention any improvement in armour or fire control comparing with L 3-35, only a chassis (armour is too good now). Unit 371 should be available from 1942, like 502.

506 L 3-38 [13.2] - despite prototype L 3/38 featured single 13.2mm MG, but actually, according to Squadron/Signal book, it wasn't adopted and some tankettes were fitted with a single 12.7 mm Breda SAFAT aircraft MG rather than 13.2mm MG (and there wasn't twin 13.2mm at all). It could be renamed to L 3-35 [..], because such weapons were mounted since early 1941, before an advent of L-3/38. Same remarks for armour, as above.


Aircraft:

I got a bit carried away with aircraft, but I noticed, that some of ground attack planes appear years too early and have unrealistic bomb loads. Changes are simple, but you can just leave it.

177,178 Cr.42 Falco - it should be CR.42 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_C.R.42)
For sure it couldn't take six bombs 50 kg - possibly four in some versions, though typical was two bombs.
As for unit 178, max bomb load was 2x100 kg (now 2x120 kg).

Apparently fighter-bomber variants entered service only in Africa (6/40 could be for both, although it seems it was 1941 - I have no firm sources).

179,180 MC.200 Saetta, MC.200 bis - MC.200 bis variant of 1942 did not enter production, but all MC.200 were armed with twin 12.7mm MGs as a standard.
Ordinary MC 200, entering service in 1939 had no bomb racks, and could be a strafer only. A fighter-bomber variant was named MC.200 CB (up to 2x160kg indeed), but they were first used, according to a Polish monograph, from summer 1942 (Italian Wikipedia seems to confirm it, first mentioning arrival of bomber MC.200 CB from July 1942)

Polish monograph mentions also armament in 8 bombs 50 kg (on two quadruple racks), but it's hard to believe.

(Great icon btw! )

184 Breda Ba.65 - according to two Polish articles, they were produced only from 2/37 and used from 5/37 (now 3/35). Withdrawn from combat use by 2/41 (now 7/42). In combat units used as single-seaters.

Although Italian Wikipedia says "1000 kg (carico teorico)" (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Ba.65) but in fact they could take 4 x max 100kg in a bomb bay (though usually it was 4x50kg).

Interesting often used armament variant was 168 of 2kg HE bomblets, but it would need a new weapon (in Spain it was used in addition to 2x100 kg bombs)

191,192 Ba. 88 Lince - they first went to units only in 5/39, ready from 9/39 (now 6/36). Withdrawn from operational service already in 11/40 (now 11/41).
Speed 3 is too low (490 km/h)

Although Italian Wikipedia gives bomb load 1000 kg, but it had a big problem with overload and wouldn't go airborne with it, especially in Africa, when they had problems with 250 kg sometimes (what is confirmed even on Wikipedia page).

As for unit 191, a standard load was 3x100 kg, 3x200 kg was theoretical.
As for unit 192, according to Polish article and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/ba88.html, a standard number of 250 kg bombs were two. Three 250kg would be pure theory, not mentioning four (Ba 88 had three bomb racks under a fuselage).

That's all.

Attached are some assorted photos.

[Pibwl]

Only few connected for RSI OOB

502 CV-38 - proper picture is 20642 (now it's CV-35)

505 CV-38/Brixia - there is a dedicated photo 821

506 CV-38 [13.2] - proper photo is 822, as Italian unit 506 (besides, same remarks, as Italian 506)

(503 CV-38 [20] - there isn't known a variant with 20mm gun and MG)