China OOB21 and OOB14 v.11

[Pibwl]

Infantry guns

102 37mm Cannon (TR mle 16 gun) - photo is eg. 9400, dedicated icon 8033.
However, there is no French 37mm infantry gun mentioned on the page https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theo...-t352-s10.html
(same for OOB14)

There is only 37mm Skoda M.15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.7_cm...h%C3%BCtz_M.15) (more non-Chinese photos https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...h%C3%BCtz_M.15) and probably captured Japanese 37mm Type 11 from mid-30s.

108 37mm Cannon (different class) (SA17 L21 gun) - as above. Anyway, the weapon should rather be the same as 103 (towed gun was TR mle 16, SA17 was tank gun).
(same for OOB14)

103 65mm Cannon - Italian M.13 gun. The quoted page mentions only French 65mm Mle 06 used (eg. Polish unit #409, with photo 468).
Same for 109 unit.
Icons of both units should be unified (2108 is OK)
(same for OOB14)

105 75mm Cannon - photo is Type 94 mountain gun - proper photo for Type 41 mountain gun is Japanese 2433.
I suggest icon 2122, with better fits to its double trail (photos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_4...m_mountain_gun)
Same for 111 unit
(same for OOB14)

106 76mm Cannon
- Soviet guns were delivered only from some 1938 (now 1/30)
(Same for 112 unit)
(same for OOB14)

120 76.2mm M1927 IG - duplicate of unit 112 in the same class, with different names, but identical specifications (and wrong icon). The only practical difference is a rifle instead of a carabine.
(same for OOB14)

76mm M1909 mountain gun might be used instead (eg. Romanian #133), but I don't know if there is a sense - they probably weren't very numerous


107 95mm Cannon - no mention on 3.7in howitzer to be delivered by the British on the quoted page.
Same for 113 unit.
(same for OOB14)

75mm Bofors mountain gun could be copied to China from some 1933 (eg. Dutch #298, but Hogg's "Twentieth-century artillery" credits it with a range 9,300 m).

Possibly #92 75mm Pack How (most numerous Chinese gun) should be copied as infantry howitzer as well.

[Pibwl]

Armour etc

05 Vickers 6E - name should be "6-Ton" or "E" (or "E 6-Ton")

06 Type 94 Ho-Go - is "Ho-Go" name correct for Tk tankette in Chinese service?.. (same for OOB14)

017 PzKw Ia - according to German reports (in Panzertracts), they were unpacked only in June 1937 "due to insufficient organization" (now: 6/36).

58-61 Fortified House - photo isn't a house at all, closer is eg. 8884 from Italian OOB or 30233
(same for OOB14)

266 Armrd Truck - photo is unarmoured French Laffly, with portee 25mm AT gun in addition. Here is a photo of an armoured truck used in China http://www.warwheels.net/ArmoredTruc...provINDEX.html.
Better would be even Swedish 36906
Same for 272 Armrd Truck /Gn
(same for OOB14)

269 SdKfz 222 - available from 6/39. Apparently they were bought earlier, along with SdKfz 221 and Pz I (6/36 in the game). This wargaming book says 1937 https://books.google.pl/books?id=vHC...0china&f=false

271 Shanghai M.31, 272 Armrd Truck /Gn - they use too good Japanese Type 1 tank gun from early 1940s. I have no idea what gun they could have from 1930, but it should be something similar to Japanese #9 37mm Sogekiho or #13 37mm L36 Type94 at best)

289 MHarrington 4TA - "Reportedly China also ordered a quantity; it is not probable that any of these were delivered" (on non-existing anymore page http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ma...gton/tank.html). The same says Polish article by T. Basarabowicz and this Russian article: http://tankfront.ru/allies/china/history.html.

I'll dare to refresh my earlier suggestions, to re-consider:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There at the bottom are interesting twin-turret armoured cars:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...ed+Car+in+WWII
(there's a perfect icon 2717).

There should be also added Citroen-Kegresse armoured car, of unknown model, used by Wu-Peifu warlord (since 1/30? for several years). I assume, that the armament was 37mm Puteaux gun or MG. Polish unit 663 wz.28 AC could serve as a direct pattern. It should look similar to the French car on the page http://derela.pl/wz28.htm - or photo 29505 or 29508 could serve.

There is also one mysterious, but nice-looking AC
http://s40.photobucket.com/user/nuyt...8enla.jpg.html

Aircraft

393 Curtiss Hawk 75M - used in combat from 8/38 [1/37], according to Polish article on Chinese air combat (in 1937 only a single demonstrator was delivered).
Better icon seems 847 (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/p36/p36-3.gif) without that typical Republic wing (icon might be used, if we add P-43 Lancer)
Not listed as operational anymore in 1/44.

Some publications say, that armament was just four 7.62mm MGs, without 12.7mm MGs (typical for US ones). Three bombs doesn't seem probable (typically such aircraft carried two)

394 Nakajima Type 91 - first delivered only in 9/1934 (now 11/31)
They remained in use longer (now 6/37) - only in 7/37 they were taken over from Kwangsi aviation to central Chinese aviation - I guess until end of 1937 and arrival of Soviet aircraft at least.


396 Waco 240A - it was reportedly capable even of taking two 100 lb bombs - safely might be 2x50 lb or 4x50 lb (now it has 5x25 lb, which is very atypical number).
According to the book, they arrived only in 1/31 (now 1/30) - the earliest aircraft from 1/30 might be Breguet 14, copied from #427 level bomber.


397 Douglas O-2MC - might be copied with alternative heavier bomb load 2 x 120lb described in a book as used in action (Encyclopedia of Chinese aviation).

399,400 V-92C Corsair - MGs should be ordinary .30 or 7.7mm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_O2U_Corsair) (now .50).
In #400, single 110lb bomb is very atypical load - it could carry in action 2 x 120lb, as described in a book.

408, 410 I-16 Type 10/Type 24 - according to Polish article on fighters in China (http://www.magnum-x.pl/artykul/zanim...tajace-tygrysy - I have full paper issue), first there were used I-16 Type 5 with only 2 MGs (11/37 might be).
I-16 Type 10 with 4 MGs arrived only in spring of 1938, and
I-16 with 20mm guns (type 17 and 24) - only from late 1939 (8/39?) (now 11/37)
Chinese photo https://i.pinimg.com/736x/91/c9/69/9...054da73187.jpg

414 P-51 Mustang - (precisely, P-51D) Are there known any cases of Mustang carrying four bombs? It's better to change 4x250lb to 2x500 lb, which P-51 could carry.

418, 419 P-38 Lightning - in fact they were only reconnaissance unarmed Lockheed F-5s, according to A History of Chinese Aviation... (text previously attached)

428 Fiat Br.3 - It could also take a heavier variant of 6 x 250lb or 2 x 500lb bombs (confirmed in a book). They ceased to be operational by 6/37 (now 12/40)

433 B-25b Mitchell - there were used only D,H,J models, operational not earlier, than 1943 (now 6/42) (I had previously attached text from the book)

436 Heinkel 111B-2 - a designation was He 111K (export version of 111A). Arrived already in 8/36 (now 7/37).

437 Lockheed Hudson - used not earlier, than from 8/42 [now 8/41]

450 Douglas DC-3 - precisely, C-47, used from 1942.

That's all for OOB21

[Pibwl]

Communist China OOB14:

02 T-26 M.33 - photo is M.39, could be Chinese 4123 or Soviet 27857

05 Vickers 6E - Chinese camo photo is 2385 (like Nationalist)

56 Colt HMGs - photo is Vickers, correct is eg. 674

183 AT-Rifle (PTRD) - no deliveries of Soviet equipment before 1945 at least

285 T-26a - twin turret T-26s weren't exported and aren't known to be used by China (already removed from nationalist OOB)

288 Vickers 6-Ton - twin-turret Vickers wasn't used in China (already removed from nationalist OOB)

289 MHarrington 4TA - not used in China, especially by communists (see earlier post).

BTW: it may be doubtful, if the communists captured all kinds of nationalist tanks, before 1944-45 at least - but I have no sources...

It is also doubtful if L3 tankettes (282-286) survived until 1946 - on the other hand 290 Type 95 Ha-Go, 292 Type 97 Chi-Ha surely should be used until 12/46.

There also should be added Type 97kai Chi-Ha - unit 299 from Nationalist OOB - it was surely used.


There is a bit more known on aircraft, from Encyclopedia of Aircraft and Aviation in China until 1949. It seems, that the communists had no air forces in fact until 1945!

The first aircraft was one V-65C Corsair named Lei Ning (Lenin), captured in 3/30 and used until 7/32. The second aircraft was Douglas O-2MC named Marx, captured in 4/32. Then apparently there were none for some time.

They could replace 396 and 440 Kwangsi 3 (which wasn't produced).

"What became known as the Air Force of the PLA acquired its first aircraft by capturing Japanese machines and in addition a large number of Japanese aircraft were captured by the Russians in Manchuria and then handed over to the PLA".
There are mentioned: Ki-43 Hayabusa, Ki-44 Shoki, Ki-61 Hien, Ki-84 Hayate fighters (units 401-404), Ki-45 Toryu heavy fighter (lacking), Ki-30 (unit 405) and Ki-51 attack aircraft (lacking), Ki-48 bombers (430).

So, any Soviet aircraft before 1949 is doubtful. Some Japanese ones could have been captured earlier, but there's no specific information.

405 Mitsubishi Ki-30 - picture is Kawasaki Ki-32 (proper is 4166).

That's all for China.