Smg

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hello
The SMG category includes a lot of weapons that have very different performances with respect to effective range. For example the Hungarian Model 39M/43M or Czecholovakian ZK 383 are clearly in a different category than say the STEN.
So I made a spreadsheet and I included the factors that I think effect range, and weighted them so as to conform with some generally held beliefs about SMG range.
British and American infantry weapons of World war 2 by A J Barker says
The STEN... but it had many serious faults and was never popular...The standard of production was often poor and this aggravated the defects inherent in the design...bordering on crudity.
He gives the STEN an effective range of 30m
Encyclopedia of weapons of WW2 by Chris bishop says Soumi and Berretta had effective ranges up to 300m, Berretta with the proviso that this is on single shot.
Encyclopedia of infantry weapons of ww2 by Ian Hogg says the Soumi is so well made its accurate up to 300m
A. J. Barkers German infantry Weapons of world war 2 gives these effective ranges.
MP 18 300 yds
MP 28 300 yds
Erma 300 yds
Bereta 300 yds
MP 38-40 200yds
MP 44 300 yds
FG 42 300-600 yds, maybe meaning on automatic and single shot.
So Ive weighted the factors in my table to give a possible maximum range of no more than 300 metres and a minimum of 50.
I also took into account John Weeks comments in his book Infantry weapons. He says
Maximum effective range of pistol ammo is 200yds in a 8-9 inch barrel.
As for the factors,
For weight I used the PPD as a baseline value of 1 and the lightest, MAS 38 as ~0
For barrel length I used the shortest barrel SMG, STEN as 0 ranging up to a value of 2 for a KAR 98 rifle.
I used the FG42 MV of 2500 as a value of 1 and down to almost 0 for the slowest values of 1250
ROF got a slight advantage for slower, more controlable ROF.
Only PPD and PPSh weights include the magazine. I did this as these magazines are particularily heavy.
Sub machiune guns and automatic rifles by Peter Chamberlain and Terry Gander and many other Authors say the MP 34, MP 35 and MP 28 were very well made quality machined weapons.
Even though you might not agree with my weightings, I think the table illustrates that SMGs should have different ranges.

As the SMGs are relatively easy to find in the Database check utilities, I've just listed the ones difficult to identify.
Slovak Republic.
216 722(f) is the French MAS 38
Chinese communists
185 8mm Nambu SMG is Japanese type 100/40
Germany
216 722(f) is French MAS 38
233 MP 749(e) SMG is British STEN MkII
235 MP 739(i) SMG is Italian Beretta 1938
238 MP 760(a) SMG is Yugoslavian Thompson
246 MP 717(r) SMG is Soviet PPSh 41
Nationalist China
185 8mm Nambu SMG is Japanese type 100/40
Belgium
158 PM 1934 SMG is MP 35
Netherlands
158 PM M.39 should be MP 28, used in the east indies.
Finland
002 M/34-40 DPP SMG is Soviet PPD
238 Kpist m/44 SMG, copy of Soviet PPS-43
Sweden
228 Kpist m/40 SMG is this a pistol?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahti_L-35
227 Kp m/37-39(Kp m/37?) SMG is Finish Soumi m/31
225 Kpist m/39 SMG, is German Bergman MP 35
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...g_World_War_II
Hungary
238 34M Steyr SMG is German MP34(o)
Romania
248 Mauser M32 SMG is this a pistol?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_C96

These videos are interesting to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-PmLxkOmaM copmare STENs and lanchester
http://modernfirearms.net/smg/de/mp3-mp40-e.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJWp2WywIgE
this is a replica but is more accurate than contempory MPs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nKNShU5UHk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLErRfvbeeY

Lanchester and PPD-40 are close copies of MP28.
Lanchester and Type 100 have fixed or adjustable sights I've opted for adjustable.
Austrian solothurn s1 100 is the same as the German MP 34(o). These weapons, and MP35 all had a range of barrel lengths to choose from.
Some versions of the MP 34(o) and S1-100 used the more powerful mauser 9mm cartridge, some the weaker Parabellum 9mm.
Schmeiser MP38/40 had a very light bolt for a SMG which adds to accurracy, but bolt weight isnt included in the table as I dont know the weight of all the bolts. So it might be a bit underrated for range.
Owen SMG had a violent action because of short bolt travel 2 3/8" vs STEN's 5 1/8"
Early STEN had only two rifling grooves.
I suggest Seperating out the STEN MK 5 from the other STENs. STEN mk 5 is a much better gun with improved manufacture. It was used by the British paratroopers from 1944 onwards
Cannot find the Spanish Star SMG TN35 and Star SMG RU35 muzzle velocities so Ive given them the generic 1250.

[Mobhack]

You have been here a while so you should know that the TO&E sub-forum is the place for queries on equipment.

Rifles and SMG are generic weapons in the game and always have and will be.

If you feel that you want 300 yard SMG sections - by all means, use Mobhack to make your own OObs and post those in the Mods forum.

But pistols, rifles, SMG, LMG etc will be staying exactly as they are in the default OOBs.

[DRG]

NOTHING is going to be changed in regards to SMG ranges. The "effective" ranges you quote are rediculous for pistol caliber ammo in actual combat. Stop making suggestions like this. They will not be acted upon and all they do is annoy us

[Kiwikkiwik]

Ok I get it NO CHANGES, But we can still discuss the merits? and point out an error,
The error is that SMG are actually not generic, SMGs firing the .45 ACP bullet get an extra point of HE kill. So If its fair enough to have different HE kills then maybe its fair enough to have different ranges?
Here is an interesting quote form Chris McNabs book Soviet submachine guns of World war II.

Fired in comparative tests, the 7.62mm round demonstates a far superior trajectory (to 9mm and .45)...This is the key reason why both the PPS-43 and PPSh-41 manuals include range data out to 300m...for most pistol (SMG) cartridges commanding this sort of range would be an utter impracticality, but for the 7.62mm Soviet round it is a realizable possibility (although 200m is a more realistic practical range). It is often noted that the performance characteristics of the 7.62mm Soviet round actually approach those of rifle cartridges....the submachine gun has a round that can reach out and touch the enemy at ranges beyond those of similarily armed opponents (Other SMGs).

SMGs fire either the 9mm parabellum .45 ACP or 7.62 Tokarev bullets or rarely the Mauser 9mm. The quote above suggests that the 7.62 outranges the others. This is true, 7.62 is a faster bullet and so has a flatter trajectory, flatter trajectory translate into better range. Of the others the .45 is a much slower bullet than the Parabellum, has a lower muzzle velocity, and so has a lesser range.
Obviously drop shouldnt be a problem as gun sights can be adjusted for range. However all the SMGs firing .45 ACP have unadjustable sights. They are clearly intended for short range work only.

lone sentry says this
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...-riflemen.html
According to a Russian instructional poster, best results are obtained with this (SMG) weapon as follows: single shot, up to about 300 yards; short bursts, about 200 yards; long bursts, about 100 yards.

Bullet drop and hence effective range for all SMGs is calculated in the attached spreadsheet. I used the M1 carbine as a benchmark.
At a range of 250m the M1 carbine has a bullet drop of 8cm and 250m is the maximum range of the weapon in the game. So I used 8cm drop or greater as the cut off value to calculate SMG maximum range. The red entries in the spreadsheet.
The breaks SMGs into 3 range groups, 100, 150 and 200m

In the 200m group are 7 SMGs, They are the Russian SMGs firing the 7.62 bullet, the 38/42 SMG (Berretta 38/42) and the two Hungarian SMGs firing the extra powerful mauser 9mm round. These bullets are travelling faster giving the more accurate flatter trajectory. The Hungarian SMGs have just a little over 8cm drop at 9cm drop at 200m, have a barrel that is longer than the M1 carbine and can fire single shot. Really they are a closer to a carbine than a SMG but can still fire full auto. All have range adjustable sights.
The Russians could replace rifles in infantry squads with SMGs because their SMGs had better range than the typical cheaply made, inaccurate trench clearing SMGs of other armies.

Leroy Thompsons book The M3 Grease gun says this about M1 carbine and M3 grease gun.

Generally, the M1 Carbine's effective range was given as 300 yd, but due to bullet drop with the earlier non-adjustable sights, 200 yd was more likely. Effective range for the M3 was usually considered to be 100yd, but 50yd was more realistic.

The fixed M3 sight is zeroed for 100ft, about 33 yds, in leroy Thompsons book he says this makes it usable out to 75 yds.
None of the .45 calibre SMG have an adjustable sight. This pretty much precludes accurate fire over about 100m anyway.

In the 100m group are 4 SMGs All the American .45 SMGs. Their heavier bullet might have more punch, giving higher HE Kill, but as their bullet is slower it has less range as is clearly demonstrated in the spreadsheet.

The rest of the SMGs get 150m as is the case now.
I would however make an exception for the early STENs. The crudety of their construction limited their range rather than the ballistics of the bullet. I think they should get a range of 100m the better made STEN Mk5 should get 150m.

Also, it could be argued that guns in the 150m range group that dont have an adjustable sight could also be moved into the 100m range category, that would put a further 7 SMGs into the bottom group. Highlighted in Green in the spreadsheet.

I used this formula to calculate bullet drop.
time of travel = d/v
drop = grav accle/2X(t)squared.
Assume air resistence is the same for all bullets. They all have very similar shapes.

[Pibwl]

Interesting point, and it seems right as regards to 7.62mm, but even I don't see a necessity to diversify SMGs (although a change in range 10 vs 8 hexes might be reasonable in case of short rifles - under 600 mm barrel ...just thinking).

If you like diversifying infantry weapons, you may want to join SP:WAW ENH-FR team https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/spwa...=unread#unread

[Kiwikkiwik]

Thanks for your interest Pibwl, well if the game moved to 10m hexes the different ranges would be more relevant. Is spwaw still being played I thought it had faded away?

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Thanks for your interest Pibwl, well if the game moved to 10m hexes the different ranges would be more relevant. Is spwaw still being played I thought it had faded away?

It still would not work with this game system, even if and its a big if some have a longer range it’s at single or semi auto so HE kill is way to high.
Your videos argue against increasing the range, can hit at 100 yds if don’t use auto and its a well aimed shot but said I would much rather use a rifle.
I have fired 2 of them and would say they are short ranged weapons, combat they would probably be useful for house clearing and the like because you can probably get the drop on the other guy due to size and volume of bullets.
Firing them on the run like in the movies and hitting anything that’s not right on top of you is laughable or would take a lot of training unless the recoil is very low. Dangerous in fact if you only had 1 foot on the ground as it spins you.

[Kiwikkiwik]

Depends on whether the current 150m is a max or average range. I thought it average so made some SMG ranges lower and some higher according to drop or how straight the bullet goes. If it's a maximum value just have 3 range groups, 150, 100 and 50 instead of 4.
I think if you look at the two extremes the STEN and the Hungarian SMG you would agree it would be sensible to give them different ranges. At the moment all smgs get 150m which is too far for a STEN or Schmeisser but maybe ok for the Russian guns I think drop would be the best way to seperate them out I have just suggested four ranges at 8cm drop. It could just as easily be broken down into 2 ranges at a different drop value. Bottom line is I think that there is a lot of variability in smgs that the game doesn't capture and changing some of the ranges is very easy

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Is spwaw still being played I thought it had faded away?

I don't know, I only update pictures Apparently some still play.

[Kiwikkiwik]

I must say I am an admirer of your efforts in this forum, keep up the great work