Poland OOB

[Pibwl]

I know this is rather not important, but for a sake of precision, an autocorrection according to more detailed article:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

619 ZU-23-2E (improved AA gun with new CKE-1 sights of 2002, FC=20) - name should be ZU-23-2K in fact (E was a proposal with central battery fire control, while K have new individual collimator sights).
Now it has vision 40, while it should have 0 from the start, and 30 only from 2004 2005(CKE-1N sights with passive night vision). Vision 40 was obtained only in 2016 (CKE-1T sights with TI). These versions might be added.

95 ZUR23-2KG Jodek (Polish ZU-23 with Grom missiles of 2002) - FC should be 20 (now 15), like unit 619 of the same year with the same family sights CKE-2 (it can engage targets flying 500 m/s, comparing to 300 m/s in case of ZAP-23).
Vision should be 0, and 30 only from 2004 2005 (CKE-2N sights, as above)

584 Dzik 2 - (class Gun APC Wheeled) - it isn't used in infantry recce units, but exclusively as APC for Military Gendarmerie Special Units (Oddziały Specjalne Żandarmerii Wojskowej), created around the same time...

There could be created such special unit (class Police?), named eg. OS ZW Squad or SpecZW Squad (or section). They were used among others in some peacekeeping duties in Africa. I guess the squad should be around 6 men, armament is mostly #026 wz.96 Beryl SMG and MP-5. ...

From 2016 they use Plasan SandCat, named Szop in Poland (carry 8)

I asked at Zandarmeria Wojskowa fb page, and a section has 8 man, currently armed with MP-5 and HK416.
Szop (SandCat) vehicles are armed with Mk 17 GL or 7.62mm minigun (some generic light MRV icon might be used, like 680 or 7718)

[Pibwl]

I've found great article about ATGM in Polish service until 1989, for the first time making wider usage of archives ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 2/2021) - some dates, which I tried to figure out years ago from partial sources, might be corrected:

30 BRDM Trzmiel - in 1962 there were only few launchers delivered for training, and they appeared in units from mid-63 (now 1/62). Withdrawn from service already by 12/78 (now 89) (stored until 1985, but not included in mobilization plans).

Would need a change in 082 SP-ATGM Platoon, as the first unit.

433 GAZ-69 Trzmiel - same as above, but delivered to units only in 1965. Rare vehicle, used only in airborne division.

24 BRDM-2 Malutka2 - delivered only on 1974 (now 73).
Wrong name - it's not Malutka-2, but Malutka-P (could be BRDM2 Malutka-P, just Malutka-P, or 9P133 Malutka-P)

33 BRDM Malutka (Malutka-M) - most probably only two launchers were used for training (other documents indicate 12 vehicles, but it is less reliable, and in 1971 only two are mentioned)

34 BRDM-2 Konkurs - used in units only from 1985 (now 84).
Probably withdrawn by now, but I have no precise info.

73 Fagot ATGM - appeared in units already in 1977 (now 79)

481 Para Fagot ATGM - not used by airborne forces at all at that time (I don't know how about later 490-491 units)

638 Metis Para ATGM - already withdrawn (around 2010?, after an advent of Spike)

794 WOT JavelinTeam - may be available even earlier [now 1/22] - in 6/21 first batch of operators completed training and first ones were fired.

[blazejos]

Found interesting information

Rosomak APC without tower with small rotational MMG which I proposed earlier as a addition to Polish OOB is know in army as Rosomak M-3
They were used in Afganistan and Chad and after that returned to Poland. Here were put in storages and now are rebuild to new variant

Rosomak-S which is transporter for two Spike-LR sets. Visible is that small tower will be removed and probably many changes inside


source about Rosomak M-3 https://zbiam.pl/wojsko-chce-kolejne-rosomaki-m-3/
source about rebuilding to Rosomak S https://zbiam.pl/przekazanie-kto-rosomak-s/

in December 2021 was mentioned that all ordered vehicles are already rebuild to version which is know by nickname "SpikeBus"
https://zbiam.pl/artykuly/nowe-rosomaki-s-juz-w-wojsku/


Here also photo of Polish airborne PWA Aero with mortar mentioned earlier which is in use by Polish paratroopers icon proposed in earlier post

[DRG]

Originally Posted by blazejos

Found interesting information

Rosomak APC without tower with small rotational MMG which I proposed earlier as a addition to Polish OOB is know in army as [b]Rosomak M-3

There has been a Rosomak APC named M3 with just an MMG in the OOB's for over a decade.

Just when exactly did you "propose" it's addition??

As for the Rosomak-S.......it would be nice to know if it's just a dedicated SP-ATGM vehicle or an APC with standard CC that just happens to have two Spike launchers......

OR

is it as the other article suggest it's just a APC modified slightly to accommodate 2 Spike teams

38 armored personnel carriers for the transport of anti-tank teams of Spike-LR missile sets, i.e. Rosomak-S. They were delivered to several units of the Polish Army

if it has mounted launchers it's an SP-ATGM but this is a translation issue and it was designed to accommodate 2 spike teams then it's just an APC for use by 2 ATGM teams.

According to info I have found it is........

Rosomak-S - Armored personnel carrier variant for two anti-tank teams armed with Spike anti-tank guided missile.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret. Due to time constraints can't verify back fit status of the HITFIST turrets, unless I come across something while writing this.
https://defence24.com/rosomak-with-s...pcoming-months

The new ZSSW turret just completed testing this a remote operated turret that I gather could see production next year. I would expect TI/GSR 45 or maybe better.
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/l...test-programme
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/l...-the-specifics

Just is just overall good data...
Under Production and Variants of the next...
"...with the M3 APCs equipped with additional armor. In 2008 one Rosomak was attacked by the Taliban and thanks to its add-on armour it survived a frontal hit by a RPG-7 rocket, and fired back, the returned to base safely."
https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/m...TO-Rosomak.php

A VERY CLOSE READING of the following paras could prove "enlightening" from the next ref. they are Paras 4 - 7 this will simply act as a system of "checks and balances" to for manning levels, weapons and most importantly current game protection levels against the refs supplied.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/rosomak.htm

I got other important things to do before work (Late Post today, TG.) so I gotta go!!! Hope this helps, if any further assistance is needed let me know but, I'll need a day or two.

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

I was going to deal with Rosomaks in detail next week after gathering some more info, but since they have been invoked...

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret.

Rosomak-S is just unarmed transport vehicle for 2 Spike crews. However, I haven't figured out yet in which formations it is used.

There were plans to merge Hitfist manned turret with Spike from the beginning, but somehow it hasn't been done and lately there are no talks on this subject anymore, especially, that Hitfist is already ageing design, and needing Italian parts.
But indeed, new ZSSW-30 Polish unmanned turred was developed in a meantime, with newest 30 mm Bushmaster (with an option for programable ammo), UKM-2000 CMG and two Spike launchers. Recently I've read, that it might enter production in 2023.

Therefore, units 679,680 Rosomak 2 should represent the vehicle used (hopefully) from 2023. No other changes are needed (unless we want to create newest generation TI). They have 4 Spikes - I don't know if there will be reloads. The name "Rosomak 2" will be most probably wrong, but might stay as for now.


Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo

Also, multicolor camo 3543 was introduced on all Rosomaks during their service, but I haven't figured yet when so far (say, 2010 as well). Correction: after research, basic Rosomaks had multicolor camo from the beginning, only uparmoured ones were green.

So I propose to change desert icon of 207 Rosomak to green 3541 and make it available until 12/09, then add the second one with 3543/3544/3542 camo.

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.


667 Rosomak-Rak - name should be just Rak (or SMK-120 Rak). Rak (lobster) is the vehicles's name.

[blazejos]

I just try insert all info from different sources and also include PIBWL sugestions about rosomak different versions into OOB so here is proposition of changes inside polish OOB.

I checked version's of rosomak with small MG towers there existing three variants. So Don has right they are but has not nice pictures which I added propably need also new icons which my prepare in not so long time.

• M2 early variant used in Chad 2008 only with ukm2000
• M3 only with ukm2000 / with 40mm Mk19 GL and ukm2000 / 12.7mm WKM-B & ukm2000 the same with version M3M

there are also different FO vehicles variants etc. I prepared this in OOB98 but can be easy copied to Polish OOB02 I looked to put this in free slots. I also add diffrent class for Rosomak S to be only transporter for spike teams snd add diffrent class for Rosomak 2 with ZSSW tower and spikes because read article that when they will be introduced in 2024 this new vehicles will go one peer platoon of older rosomak propably so I used class 220 Heavy MRV APC

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo
...

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.

Rosomak icons

I've found an article in "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 4/2010, which claims, that green vehicles already in Afghanistan are not repainted, but only new vehicles will be painted sand. It coincides with introduction of RPG nets (M1M and M3M variants), so there is no need to create new M1 and M3 units with sand desert camo and please disregard my earlier suggestion. M1 may remain green, M1M may be just sand, however there are photos of green vehicles equipped with new sand RPG nets as well.

So, unit 681 Rosomak M1 should just receive green icon 3541 for desert.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 should have green 3567 icon both as standard and desert one (they are not supposed to be used in Europe, so they received standard green camo, used for Chad and Afghanistan missions)

On the other hand, basic unit 207 Rosomak should have standard multicolor icon 3543 and green desert icon 3541

Unit 679 Rosomak 2 also should have standard multicolor icon 3550.

Rosomak armour:

There is also new information about armour. It is confirmed in newest articles, that uparmoured Rosomaks M1, M1M, M3 and M3M have composite multilayer additional front plate proof against RPG-7. Polish author Jarosław Wolski, specializing in armour issues, claims even that it is equivalent to 500 mm RHA given its inclination ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 8/21). The same will be for hypothetical uparmoured unit 680 Rosomak 2M.
Against AP ammo, it is said to be proof against 30mm 2A42, so it might be 9 instead of 8. On the other hand, front turret was not uparmoured, only sides and rear, bringing protection to Stanag level IV (front: level III+, see below).

Variants with RPG screens (M1M, M3M) have also screened part of rear hull (without doors).

On the other hand, armour of ordinary 207 Rosomak should be a bit weaker.
Hull front is Stanag level IV (5 seems correct), but hull and turret sides are level III (against 7.62mm AP, so 4 is too much). Turret front is level III+ (against 12.7 mm, so 5 is too much).
The same hull armour should have other vehicles on this chassis: 448 Rosomak CC, 579 Rosomak Ammo, 667 Rosomak-Rak, 679 Rosomak 2.