Defeating the Talisman

[Fyron]

That's cause you guys suck. j/k

[Wardad]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Undertakr, the Talisman is effective but it isn't everything. Particularlly since you are giving your opponent 110kt over you, if he's smart. 50kt Talisman + 30 Stealth + 30 Scattering + 10 ECM -10 sensors.

See, he can't dodge you anyway.. so he doesn't NEED those extra things. Just sensors. You on the other hand do need them, to dodge his shots.

PDCs are hyper-accurate even without the talisman. so that part is irrelevent..

Or your opponent can just take a page from military history and hit you when HE is ready, not when you are. It's an advantage, not a holy grail (pun not intended)

Phoenix-D

That 110Kt difference is true for ships. But... Have you looked at what the Talisman can do for a stack of units?

100 SATS in a stack is a lot of Kt, for Large SATS thats 12,000 Kt of space, for Medium SATS thats 10,000 Kt of space, and I'll ignore the Small SATS as they can't use the large weapon mount.

With 12,000 Kt of space I can easily add a 50Kt Tailisman and bonus the whole stack. I can even add few more for backup. I have more than enough room for ECM and ECM armor. In fact the toughest SATS should be destroyed Last, so my Talisman SAT could have best shields and armor points.

Oh yea, that large SAT mount adds x4 range and x2 power. That extra range is cool for using cheap ripper beams, only X weapons, and the pyshic subVersion weapon.

BUT THATS NOT ALL!!!
Don't you hate missing with the Weapon Platform large mounts. These mounts have incredible range and can deal some real pain. Just one Talisman can help a whole stack of platforms. You can put it in a small platform and save the space on the big ones for big guns.

The funny numbers...
The best combat sensor can add only +60 to hit and there is no training or racial bonus effect on units. The larger weapon platform mounts do get a bonus to Hit, but not enough.
The ship the unit is targeting may have +130 ECM (+60 ECM, +30 ECM armor, +20 ship training, +20 fleet training)and +30 racial defense (+10 bezerker, +20 attack) + DISTANCE Modifier. A mid game ships total ECM + Distance could easily be figured at +90 to +200.
Since units are generally more fragile than ships the results are damning. The ships can also have +130 to hit bonuses, (+60 combat sensor, +40 training, and +30 racial)which is better than any units ECM.
A SAT unit stack can have +90 ECM. ECM is generally wasted on weapon platforms because of a planets high hit-me bonus. I don't remember exactly what the best fighter ECM + Size Bonus is, but it is not enough.

With a Talisman in the SAT or Weapon platform a ships ECM and distance is meaningless. These units can still be usefull in the later game.

[ September 05, 2002, 00:16: Message edited by: Wardad ]

[sachmo]

I think we just have to go into those caves and get them out, although I did see a news special about how they were going to use soundwaves to make them surrender...oh, you said TALISMAN! Sorry!

[Gozra]

Not to belabor the point but I now know someone that has made the comment that as an Economic Powerhouse combined with the talisman he would be undefeatable in any game where he is allowed to get to Economic Powerhouse stage(about a million metals coming in per turn). It appears that the only defense against a Talisman player is to kill him early in the game. The talisman is way too strong. It need to be modified to miss about 10-20% of the time. Or be made very expensive to build/maintain.
Gozra

[Wardad]

Sure, we can beat those Taliban....

http://www.gotlaughs.com/funpages/bin2.swf

[Possum]

This was a very interesting thread!

Wardad, I particularly enjoyed your number-crunching analysis. Very enlightening, indeed!

[Stone Mill]

I'm just about wrapping up my first victory with my partner in a team game on PBW after a long and challenging 9 months.

I won't go into detail on what specific factors were involved, because really, winning encompasses much more than fleets and battle strategies. See the "When to Attack" thread...

The biggest and baddest player for most of the game was a very good Talisman player. His empire was getting huge. The honest key to victory was planning and pulling off a coordinated surprise attack just before he was in position to do it to me.

I attacked his economic base and raided his planets, bypassing his defensive fleets. He opened warp points on my front lines, which I used against him to launch deep (expendable)strikes behind his lines. While he reacted with damage control, I consolidated my fleets at the front to the best of my ability, even though my ships were far inferior.

I played an Organic race, and pumped out as many Base ships packed with Organic armor (and just a few weapons) as possible. I set their strategies to short/point blank. They acted as fodder. I also configured a few strats to allow some Organic ships to "dance" in and out of combat, taking advantage of the armor buildup each round. But what I lacked was a punch. I got it by building long range strike ships; and my partner helped me out with some of his ships, which were better on the attack.

Best of all, I attacked him with his own ships by insurrecting them slowly and surely... and adding them to my defensive fleets.

Intel. Gotta love it. I don't believe anyone mentioned it, but massive Intel superiority is devastating. Truly a key. Broke all his treaties, stole his ships, and robbed resources.

After consistant pressure for many turns, his economy was in shambles and his planets were rioting, halting production. To win, you must be ruthless and relentless, pressing the advantage, and never letting up. It was all down hill from there.