Proportions mod: So confusing!

[Fyron]

Ok, then that would not be a good solution, if the organics rate is lowered so much that a SYS can't even build a BSY in a reasonable amount of time. What about building up WP defenses? BSYs are necessary there, to get replenishable stores of units and such.

[ October 22, 2002, 19:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Suicide Junkie]

If you were to require the full-rate BSY to have a whole lot of crew quarters, it would look better regarding its ability to build fully crewed ships

And don't forget the fact that you could still quickly build a spaceyard that makes units and defenses as fast as normal.

Fyron: You can still build a defense base quickly, you just can't build a base with a full-ability spaceyard.

[Fyron]

If you were to require the full-rate BSY to have a whole lot of crew quarters, it would look better regarding its ability to build fully crewed ships

Too bad you can't make a component require crew quarters. That would have to be required by the base hull, which would make defense bases require tons of crew too.

And don't forget the fact that you could still quickly build a spaceyard that makes units and defenses as fast as normal.

That isn't the point. And it screws over Organic races, whos units tend to require lots of organics.

Fyron: You can still build a defense base quickly, you just can't build a base with a full-ability spaceyard.

You need BSYs there too, not just a few defense bases. And you and Geo are talking about 2 entirely separate systems, so arguements agaisnt one may not apply as well against the other.

[geoschmo]

SJ Said: And don't forget the fact that you could still quickly build a spaceyard that makes units and defenses as fast as normal.

Fyron Said:That isn't the point. And it screws over Organic races, whos units tend to require lots of organics.

Wrong. Well wrong with my idea, maybe right with SJ's. Even with Organic races the units cost four or five times as much in minerals as they do organics. So you can lower the organic build rate significantly and not decrease the rate of unit construction a bit.

SJ Said: You can still build a defense base quickly, you just can't build a base with a full-ability spaceyard.

Fyron Said:You need BSYs there too, not just a few defense bases. And you and Geo are talking about 2 entirely separate systems, so arguements agaisnt one may not apply as well against the other.

Maybe with SJ's idea you are right here too. With mine you don't need BSYs at all, cause your SYS's can build the units at the same rate. But if you want BSY's you can build them, they just take longer. This could be adjusted so that the only things that take any longer to build than they do now is colony ships and BSY's. And those two would only take longer to build when being constructed by a SYS.

Actually my suggestion is the same as SJ's. The only difference is he is saying take out the organic rate completely, I am saying just reduce it, and increase the organic cost of the colony comp and BSY comp.

EDIT: It would make building a spherworld take longer, but anyone trying that in Proportions is just sick anyway.

Geoschmo

[ October 22, 2002, 23:37: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

My organic WPs usually cost many more orgs than mins, actually.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
My organic WPs usually cost many more orgs than mins, actually.

That may be true, but they aren't much good for defending warp points now are they?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by PvK:
Yes, his point that tech in SE4 is far ahead of our 2002 tech is of course valid. Again, it's a matter of proportions. He thinks the starting tech is so high as to be able to hand-wave away many problems. Infinite energy with no specialized fuel, the ability to survive in any environment, and the ability to manufacture anything immediately from raw materials, without any specialized research and design, all seem to be starting techs, as far as his point of view, while in my case, I see them as either at the end of the SE4 tech tree, or way above the entire tech tree.

All you need for essentially infinite energy with no fuel problems is a net gain deuterium fusion reactor. The amount of D2 available in the Oceans is so massive that it would easily Last for longer than we've been recording our history.

One problem I have with imagining such high basic abilities, is that with those abilities, the raw materials and empty space provided by alien planets seem to me like they wouldn't be particularly helpful. The raw materials of a single planet would probably be more than enough to provide for all the needs of such an advanced techology. The main advantages of spreading out would be dispersion and maneuver, not providing "used up resources" or "room to study".

Exponential growth requires exponential room. Population growth is exponential.

[Graeme Dice]

Well again, we disagree. I think you're oversimplifying, and not considering many problems which will take serious amounts of time to develop. Developing technology, even in completely understood conditions on a home planet completely supported by infrastructure, takes time. And, it seems to me there would be millions of issues in trying to convert an alien planet into a homeworld-equivalent.

The thing is that you don't

Perhaps if you look at it as just a lab. However, that wasn't my point - you're looking at my question upside-down. What I was trying to say, is that a civilization only manages to raise so much novel thought and invention per year, mostly by the top fringe of its intellectual elite.

Most basic technology research is limited more by funding than by a lack of minds. Double the money you give to a professor, and they will greatly increase the number of grad students working for them.

An excellent educational system, and a gathering of minds to educate the best students in the best way, is a product of the culture as a whole, and is made possible, protected, and nurtured, by social factors built up over centuries, and which have essentially nothing to do with finding more space on alien planets to build labs.

The social factors already exist however, and don't need to be built up over centuries. A colony of ours on Mars or the Moon doesn't need to reinvent steam power, go through the industrial revolution, or develop a working economic system, they can simply use the knowledge and experience that already exists.

Well, clearly our assumptions vary widely. For example, I don't see "cornucopia fusion power from water" as a basic tech in SE4. If it were so easy to generate power, what are supplies and the Quantum Reactor all about in SE4?

Ships can't carry unlimited fuel supplies. A planet with a resupply depot has infinite supplies, representing essentially limitless fueling and energy generation capability. The Quantum Reactor is a method of getting around the fuel/mass ratio problem that plagues ships that require high performances.

I think you are describing a much higher tech level in these things than SE4's tech tree represents. Of course, a mod that made such assumptions (and I think you are making many assumptions about the tech abilities besides just fusion power) would be perfectly legitimate - it's just not what I imagined when I thought about Proportions mod.

You should read the Red Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson. I imagine that a starting empire is at least as advanced as the human's at the end of that series.

Well, again, your imagination of SE4's tech levels is simply much higher than mine. For example, I don't see SE4 as starting with FTL drives. Light takes EIGHT MINUTES to get from the Sun to the Earth. An SE4 turn is about a month. So, light speed in SE4 would be oh, probably well over 1000, not 6 (ion engine speed in SE4).

As others have mentioned, they can travel interstellar distances essentially instantly, and have the ability to cross solar systems in a manner of months. That's incredibly more advanced than what we can manage, and indicates that they are using at the very least the equivalent of a fission reactor to generate the power for their ion engines.

Again, I disagree. At least, at the tech levels I imagine. Each planet's environment is quite a bit different. Atmosphere composition is just one of many, many factors.

That's why you build buildings and contain your own environment within them. Colonizing Mars is essentially the same as colonizing Antartica, except that there's not enough air to breath.

Just because you can make a chip to survive in an environment, after years of research, doesn't make it cost-effective, or not require separate research and development times thousands of different projects.

The 200 degree chips are cost effective when they are the only thing that can do the job. Heck, they're cheap enough that some of my fellow students stuck them into an liquid asphalt tank to measure temperature Last year.

Again, ok, you can redefine population as mostly non-organic droids, but that's just an abstraction. You still need something to be able to perform a massive range of tasks, including self-support and survival in an unexplored environment. You still need power, transportation, and tons of specialized equipment and materials. Using mostly robotic personnel may solve some problems, but it introduces others. You need less food and medicine, but more power, batteries, lubricants, maintenance facilities, and spare parts, etc. If you think this can all be made from chain-reaction factories and built up from rocks, well, I think you're describing year 3000 (or year 4000) technology again.

I believe that that is more like year 2100 technology.

Well, I disagree that it's a non-issue, at least without serious tech development. Atmospheric manipulation would be a tech area, as would fusion power, pollution and temperature control, etc.

The empires in SE4 need fusion power to be able to accomplish almost any of the tasks they regulary do. You can't generate limitless fuel planet-side in any other manner realistically. Temperature control can be accomplished by large mirrors, pollution doesn't matter when there's nothing living on the world and you can throw things into space for free.

If you have such technologies, maybe. Maybe by year 4000.

Hollowing out asteroids automatically and using the raw materials to construct engines is something we should be able to do in about 100-200 years at the very latest.

Given your assumptions, I might say the same thing, but again, it sounds to me like you're 600-2000 years ahead of the techs I'm imagining.

I think you've got a very skewed view of the technology level available to a civilization. You've got weapons that can raze entire continents from a single ship, but don't have the technology to build a power plant that can produce less than that much energy on a continuous basis?

Even so, though, I still think planetary conditions would be major economic disincentives. Atmosphere composition would be only one thing. Gravity, radiation, pressure, temperature, volcanic activity, meteor activity, weather activity, indigenous life, indigenous microbes, would all present seriously expensive obstacles.

Meteor activity will not be a problem if you have gas giants in system and have a planet with an atmosphere.

Due to the complementary nature, and the complexity, of high-tech infrastructure found on a fully-civilized planet, I don't see alien colonies quickly reaching homeworld-challenging abilities even at very high tech levels. Again, only possibly with massively advanced technology, and even then, it would take signifigant time.

I see colonies becoming as powerful as homworlds with no longer than a century after first habitation. It's not going to take longer than it did on Earth to develop the technology, even if you do it from scratch, and I seriously hope you aren't sending colonists down with horse drawn plows and no books.

It seems to me you're reasoning backwards, again. How many of the planets we know of have an Earthlike atmospheric composition? Zero.

Mars would be Earth like with a few comets slammed into the surface to release CO2. Venus requires that the CO2 be removed to be earth-like.

Maybe not at your year 3000 tech level. At the tech level I imagine, robots would still require specialization and infrastructure development, which requires massive continuous transport of spare parts and supplies, as well as technological specialization, and infrastructure development on the planet to make the facilities feasible and productive.

I think you are expecting technological achievement to slow down from it's current pace far too quickly. Within 50-100 years, we should be able to build self-maintaining AI robots capable of doing all these tasks.

I don't see people "surviving easily" in a vacuum. They survive inside carefully and expensively produced and maintained artificial environments. Fragile environments which are only possible thanks to massive amounts of infrastructure which exists only on the homeworld. Planets generally are more inhospitible than vaccuum, especially before their environments have been explored and understood.

Remember that we have free energy thanks to the necessary fusion plants for SE4 to even be possible. With free energy, almost all restrictions on building things become a matter of finding the resources somewhere. You can explore a planet's conditions from orbit easily enough that we do it today.

It's not just a question of "population to run such things". Infrastructure (energy, supplies, spare parts, transportation, etc) and hospitible environments, are also represented by population, and by cultural facilities. Your imagined technology seems to include the ability to make everything from refined metals to microchips to mechanical parts, to limitless power, all from a few simple machines. Mine doesn't.

It assumes such capability because such capability is simple to a civilization that can perform feats like those at the beginning of a standard SE4 game.

Well, you may have found a technique that I didn't think of, there. I'll have to check that for play balance... you may have found something I didn't intend.

I'd hope it doesn't change, as that's the just about the only thing that makes empire development interesting, as otherwise your forces are unrealistically small.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
All you need for essentially infinite energy with no fuel problems is a net gain deuterium fusion reactor. The amount of D2 available in the Oceans is so massive that it would easily Last for longer than we've been recording our history.

That depends on the characteristics of the technology. A fusion reactor has properties like mass, required components, and a rate of efficiency. Mere "net gain" is not sufficient, if it doesn't produce enough to be effective, relative to its own mass, the mass of fuel per energy produced, its reliability, and the expense and sub-components required to produce and operate.

Again, you seem to me to be assuming that everyone starts out with a technology built in to all units that actually exceeds the abilities of the Quantum Reactor. Or, something close. I don't make that assumption at all. If I did, there would be a really cheap quantum reactor component available. But there isn't. Supplies are a major part of the gameplay in Proportions. If I follow your prediction for the easy bounty of fusion power, then maybe I would add a really cheap quantum reactor component. But I don't think it would improve either realism or interestness of play. Personally, I think quantum reactors unconvincing and boring, since they eliminate one of the major elements of play, which is why I extended that line of components the way I did in Proportions. I suppose you can decide that efficient engines, supply storage, and solar collectors and/or sails can represent this sort of technology in Proportions, but notice there are trade-offs in performance.

quote:

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One problem I have with imagining such high basic abilities, is that with those abilities, the raw materials and empty space provided by alien planets seem to me like they wouldn't be particularly helpful. The raw materials of a single planet would probably be more than enough to provide for all the needs of such an advanced techology. The main advantages of spreading out would be dispersion and maneuver, not providing "used up resources" or "room to study".

Exponential growth requires exponential room. Population growth is exponential.

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I find these two postulates massively less compelling than my two arguments above. Besides, I thought you were saying that population wasn't necessary - all you need is a teenage master 4X game player, some opposite-sex companions, and an ever-increasing self-replicating legion of robots who can produce any component given only some frozen irradiated water and some rocks, right?

Soon, the robots will swarm to cover the entire surface of every planet they can reach, constantly turning rocks into massive baseships with no supply requirements.

Sounds like it might make an interesting mod, but a very different one from Proportions, which is all about overcoming the difficulties, and having to face multiple trade-offs and decisions at once, instead of just having the magic technology to make everything possible. Or, maybe your view isn't a mod at all - the standard SE4 set seems pretty much in line with what you're suggesting, except that everyone should start with Quantum Reactors.

PvK

[ October 23, 2002, 06:44: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Fyron]

This "debate" is really funny.

Graeme Dice, no offense, but you have completely missed almost all of (if not all of) PvK's points, and you are insanely wrong about how advanced humans will be in a few centuries.

[ October 23, 2002, 09:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]