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Old October 9th, 2002, 05:31 AM

Baron Munchausen Baron Munchausen is offline
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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

Instead of asking these questions here you should visit the site and you'll find the information. That's why I posted the site. Nevertheless, I'll try to answer some of these questions.

The Space Elevator is basically a very long cable that stretches from a space station in geosynchronous orbit to the ground. The point of ground contact must be very close to the equator, of course, and that limits where it can be setup.

Although... there has been talk of using some fancy engineering to make 'diagonal' cables from temperate lattitudes meet several hundred miles up and then connect to the single cable coming from the large station in geosynchronous orbit. Once you got it setup it would work as well as the single cable system. The problem is in setting it up!

There are several reasons this is an easier way into orbit than rockets or other launch vehicles. The first is simply that you don't have to push so hard to go up! Heating thousands of tons of gas to very high temperatures by combustion so they will bLast you upward in the process is very inefficient, not to mention dangerous. With the space elevator you could have an electric motor more-or-less like those on current elevators in high-rise buildings. Or perhaps a 'pneumatic tube' type system with the air being pumped up to the station serving to propel the elevator as well! Anyway, not having to gain speed by 'throwing' stuff away from yourself at high speed is both more efficient and safer. If the elevator cars are 'external' to the cable then you also have to deal with air resistance but this is better with the cable than with rockets as well. You also don't have to go for super-sonic speed right away. Obviously it will be a long ride into orbit if the whole trip is at standard elevator speeds but it's best not to go more than a few hundred miles an hour for the first 50,000 feet or so. After that you can go thousands of miles an hour with no major air resistance problems. Not having to fight the atmosphere or design for the heating from friction makes the elevator cars much cheaper than rocket vehicles. If the elevator will be inside the cable (more difficult but we'll probably do that eventually) then you could evacuate the air and use the 'pneumatic tube' effect as I mentioned before.

The possible accidents and problems are many of course. If the cable breaks somewhere up in orbit and loses 'equilibrium' so that it comes down, it will cause damage across hundreds or thousands of miles of terrain. It's got to be made of incredibly strong materials so it will probably destroy anything it comes down on, crashing at orbital speeds. If the whole cable comes down it would wrap almost all the way around the earth!

The 737 question is not such a problem as you might think. A modern jet airliner is basically a huge aluminum ballon. It's very fragile and the cable is very strong. An airliner would be sliced up if it hit the cable but probably do little damage. More dangerous would be a hit on the ground link where an explosion and fire might damage the anchorage. I think the elevator 'cars' will be far more vulnerable than the cable itself. They cannot be heavily armored without increasing costs quite a bit. They are rather similar to jet airliners in that respect! A small bomb could punch a hole in one when it's part way up and expose everyone inside to the vacuum of space. This could be at least as tricky to guard against as it is for airlines since explosives have become so high-tech and difficult to detect.

The station in orbit is pretty safe actually. You can use it as a launching point for ships headed out from earth and they will get a good boost, but the station itself will not 'come down' any more readily than a station without a cable. Obviously, if something grabs the cable and pulls it out of orbit you've got troubles. But that would take a lot of force. It's got to be a large station to anchor the cable and make the 'center of gravity' of the whole assembly rest in orbit. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of tons. There has even been talk of trying to capture an asteroid and use it as the counter-weight. That's a whole other mega-engineering project. We can worry about that after we've got at least one working cable... In the meantime we'll probably mine the moon for the bulk of the station material.

The issues of who would get to use it, and what it would be used for, are actually more serious than the engineering questions. It looks like we've got a material that can be strong enough to make the cable (Carbon nano-tubes). Everything else is known technology. But once it is built what effect will it have on the world? That's a very different problem than the technology.

[ October 09, 2002, 05:06: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]
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Old October 9th, 2002, 05:37 AM

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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

Here is my problem with it. This cable needs to be what, 15 miles at the least? They plan to also put this thing on a floating platform in the ocean (for logisitical reasons to remove stress on the cable).

Suppose the platform gets caught in a hurricane, or even just a small squall.

I can see that big platform going "SQUEEEEAKKK SQUEEE-SQUEEAKKK!!" followed by one hell of a "POP! PING! SHSHHRHRHHHHRAAAATCH!" and then that cable is going to come down nice and fast and make one hell of a splash/dent (depending on location.)
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Old October 9th, 2002, 05:53 AM
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Captain Kwok Captain Kwok is offline
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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

Actually, it is more like 100,000kms long. You can learn a lot by just the FAQs posted at the website Baron posted. I still think something like this is far in the future...

[ October 09, 2002, 05:16: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]
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Old October 9th, 2002, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

What nobody mentioned in terms of energy used to get stuff up to orbit:

The main principle of any elevator is that whenever you send stuff UP, you send an almost identical mass DOWN (minerals mined on the moon, things produced in orbit, etc etc.). In this case you have a ridiculous small amount of energy needed for propulsion to overcome inertia ...

Just my 1 or 2 cent ... *g*
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Old October 9th, 2002, 12:33 PM

Gryphin Gryphin is offline
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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

The down ward trip could be used to generate electricty. I belive it is called 'Dynamic Braking"
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Old October 10th, 2002, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

A plane hitting the cable is going to do damage to the plane, but it's going to break the cable as well. The cable slicing through the plane and ramaining intact is just not going to happen. We can't even comprehend materials strong enough for something like that. By the time we can planes will be faster and made of stronger materials too, so the plane will still break the cable.

You aren't going to have thousands of miles of cable falling down though, and it's not going to wrap around the earth. If the cable is that long it could of course wrap around the earth, but that much cable wouldn't fall down.

While the cable may thousands or even tens of thousands of miles long, a break in the cable at above a couple hundred miles is not going to cause it to come crashing down. The reason is that at that length the mass of the cable itself will be enough to keep it in orbit. Remeber that this isn't like hanging a rope fom a branch of a tree. The cable isn't supported by the sattelite at the orbital end. The cable is in effect a sattelite itself.

A break anywhere in the lower couple hundred miles of cable would cause everything below that to plummet to the ground of course. And a couple hundred miles of cable is going to be a problem if it lands on something. But you can limit the risk by locating the ground end carefully.

The literature on the website Baron posted talks about putting the ground end on a mobile ocean platform, like what is used for deep ocean oil drilling. These aren't attached to the ocean floor. This sort of arangment could actually be moved to avoid low earth orbit sattelites and possible sever weather such as a hurricane.

EDIT: Something else I didn't consider, but the website mentions. Parts of the ribbon above a certain altitude falling down will burn up in the atmosphere. So actually you may not get more than 10 or 15 miles of ribbon on the ground, not the hundreds that I was thinking. And the ribbon is heavy in total, but streatched out any particular piece of it is very light. So as it falls that part that survives the trip through the upper atmosphere will be slowed by the lower atmosphere to around the speed of falling paper. You'd have a big cleanup job picking up miles of ribbon cable, but it won't have much physical impact even if it hits something on the ground.

Geoschmo

[ October 09, 2002, 13:13: Message edited by: geoschmo ]
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Old October 9th, 2002, 03:07 PM

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Default Re: OT: About Space Elevators

My concern is what if they can't move it away from the hurricane in time.

A project like that is going to be measured in the hundreds of trillions price tag and with gov't buying, they'll make 2 and 3x the price.

I also think they will come up with a self-clibing mechanism to pull stuff up. Sure it's slower, but we can slap an italian sticker on it and say it's romantic.
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