Mod: Warhammer MA: Empire

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Redeyes

One of the ideas I'm working with is take the the Abyssian Warlord and Warmaster's unitid for the Warrior Priest. Why? For those who don't know, when a Warlord is made a prophet it turns into a Warmaster.

This should allow me to give a special appearance and abilities to the "Prophet of Sigmar".

Good idea, I think. This somewhat limits usability of such a mod, of course - the mod nation wouldn't be usable along with existing one (Abyssia in this case), but a possibility for unique prophet characters outweights it for me. I'd probably use something like this for my Arabian-based mod even though I want it to be usable along with other nations. But this allows for unique Khalifs... And Warhammer would work best as a total conversion, I think.
As for Empire in particular, this could be used to make unique War Altar, for example (the armybook contains some indication that there is only one such).

[llamabeast]

A War Altar would be much better done as a unique summon. There is no problem with making new unique units.

The idea of making a unit which changes on being prophetised is quite cool though. I think the best thing to do would be to create a new unit for Abysia, exactly the same as the Abyssian Warlord, but obviously without the special propheting thing. Then Abysia would be left essentially unaffected (apart from losing one little cosmetic feature), while you would get to do the cool thing with the Prophet of Sigmar.

I personally am very keen on having all mod nations be compatible with all vanilla nations (ideally even those in other ages). I think both me and Sombre like mixing the Warhammer nations with the vanilla nations.

[llamabeast]

Burn, I think the Bright Wizard isn't one of your best, because:

1) His face looks funny.

2) He is generally a bit blurry and low and detail. Maybe he needs more bling.

Obviously he's still a pretty good sprite and I'm only offering criticisms because I think your sprites are amongst the very best.

[Sombre]

Yeah regarding the mixing of warhammer and vanilla nations I think some people have this idea of a total conversion, but even if it were realistic (which I don't believe it is) I'm not sure it would be that much fun. I like adding the warhammer nations as dominions 3 nations which mix and match with other mod nations and the basegame.

There's something awesome about taking warhammer skaven up against legions of Jotun giants, or Tomb Kings against the goblins and oni of Shinuyama.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Sombre

There's something awesome about taking warhammer skaven up against legions of Jotun giants, or Tomb Kings against the goblins and oni of Shinuyama.

Not so awesome - I (Shinuyama goblins) killed off Skaven while Tomb Kings made a very strong peacetime development, after which we both took part in stomping down Ermor! Maybe if the game didn't turn into sheer boredom by the time of Skaven-stomping, I could agree with you, but I don't think mix and match is intristically better...
Of course, another thing needed for total conversion would be a possibility to make Warhammer-specific magic items and spells. Spells are sometimes possible, but items are sadly not (there are too many cool features currently not modable). If you meant this, I can only agree. But make all Warhammer nations excluding items (except maybe some may be modelled with summons already having them?) and with limited magic difference is certainly possible. Actually, I almost have them on paper - excluding graphics. A plus side of such an approach is that they should be balanced amongst themselves in this case. A minus side, of course, is ton of pics necessary at one time - what other problems do you see?
By the way, which Warhammer nations are still not taken by modders?

[llamabeast]

Not so awesome - I (Shinuyama goblins) killed off Skaven while Tomb Kings made a very strong peacetime development, after which we both took part in stomping down Ermor! Maybe if the game didn't turn into sheer boredom by the time of Skaven-stomping, I could agree with you, but I don't think mix and match is intristically better...

Can't understand you, sorry. What was not good, and what are you suggesting caused it?

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Not so awesome - I (Shinuyama goblins) killed off Skaven while Tomb Kings made a very strong peacetime development, after which we both took part in stomping down Ermor! Maybe if the game didn't turn into sheer boredom by the time of Skaven-stomping, I could agree with you, but I don't think mix and match is intristically better...

... what? I don't get it. How is that anything to do with mixing warhammer and dom3 nations? Sounds more like you got bored in a specific game, during the first war?

Of course, another thing needed for total conversion would be a possibility to make Warhammer-specific magic items and spells. Spells are sometimes possible, but items are sadly not (there are too many cool features currently not modable). If you meant this, I can only agree.

No, I wasn't so much referring to spells and items. I think 90% of the spells in warhammer can be adequately represented in dom3, while the items are far less important to the warhammer flavour, and many of them are already represented by basegame items, or could be made so (almost all of the weapon style items in warhammer can be made for example). As you say, you can also make summons, heroes etc who already carry certain items, describe these in the text and give them appropriate abilities. A Skaven summon might be for an assassin or warlord armed with the Fellblade, who is struck with disease or decay when entering battle, but has a hugely powerful weapon etc.

But make all Warhammer nations excluding items (except maybe some may be modelled with summons already having them?) and with limited magic difference is certainly possible. Actually, I almost have them on paper - excluding graphics. A plus side of such an approach is that they should be balanced amongst themselves in this case. A minus side, of course, is ton of pics necessary at one time - what other problems do you see?
By the way, which Warhammer nations are still not taken by modders?

Well I don't know if you noticed, but there have been a lot of projects where people almost have everything on paper and almost have all the ideas mapped out - but they don't come to be. In my experience having the stuff mapped out, doing the initial 'research' etc is virtually nothing of the time and effort it takes to make a mod. I have every warhammer nation pretty much mapped out, every warwind nation and a few others,.. but I don't feel it's actually progress. So as I said before, I wish you luck in making every warhammer nation for your own TC and look forward to playing it, but I don't think it's realistic.

For reference, here is the state of play regarding warhammer nations. I wouldn't say that any of them are 'taken' by any modders, since there's nothing to stop someone doing their own version.

Skaven (Done by me)
Ogre Kingdoms (Done by me)
Lizardmen (Done by me)
Tomb Kings (Done by llama)
Chaos Hordes (Panpiper has made a mod which isn't 100% finished but apparently covers most of this)
Empire (I am working on, handful of graphics and code)
Greenskins (Okin was working on, several graphics seen)
Bretonnia (Burnsaber is working on, several graphics seen)
Chaos Beasts (Zepath made some sprites for a chaos nation which included some beastmen, but other than that, nothing)
High Elves (I remember someone posted one or two graphics which looked ok - they are also /partially/ represented in Zepath's Sylvania)
Wood Elves (also partially represented in Sylvania, other than that, nothing)
Dark Elves (I made one unit graphic, someone made some slightly ropey looking ones from resizing the miniatures)
Dwarfs (There are some fantasy dwarf nations, but nothing warhammery really)
Chaos Dwarfs (Someone posted some decent sprites a while ago, for a few basic units)
Dogs of War/Tilea (I actually have code for about 10% of this, and some graphics never seen)
Araby (There are a couple of middle eastern mods, unfinished)
Vampire Counts/Sylvania (Partially covered, sort of, by Zepath's Sanguinia)
Classic Undead (Nothing here so far, really)

I think that's all of them. I might be missing something though.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Sombre

... what? I don't get it. How is that anything to do with mixing warhammer and dom3 nations? Sounds more like you got bored in a specific game, during the first war?

By the end of first war. What I meant is that the presence of Warhammer nations didn't add anything to the development of events. Also, while either classic Dominions nations or Warhammer ones have a rich history of interrelations already developed, they do not really have good reasons for relations between groups. Of course, some game scenarios can actually play along with this fact - but I at least think those where nations know of each other more interesting.
Another thing is that some Dominions nations have many similarities with Warhammer ones. And this makes them somewhat interchangeable, also creating a reason for mod-maker to make his mod nation overpowering in an effort to make it different from an existing ones. I feel such an impulse myself sometimes and I think that something similar could afflict the author of the Tomb Kings...

Originally Posted by Sombre

Well I don't know if you noticed, but there have been a lot of projects where people almost have everything on paper and almost have all the ideas mapped out - but they don't come to be. In my experience having the stuff mapped out, doing the initial 'research' etc is virtually nothing of the time and effort it takes to make a mod. I have every warhammer nation pretty much mapped out, every warwind nation and a few others,.. but I don't feel it's actually progress. So as I said before, I wish you luck in making every warhammer nation for your own TC and look forward to playing it, but I don't think it's realistic.

Yes. Now I see what you mean, thank you. I still think that it's possible, though it would probably be better to make them one at the time. I hope first ones would appear during the following winter when I have less work...

Originally Posted by Sombre

For reference, here is the state of play regarding warhammer nations. I wouldn't say that any of them are 'taken' by any modders, since there's nothing to stop someone doing their own version.

Skaven (Done by me)
Ogre Kingdoms (Done by me)
Lizardmen (Done by me)
Tomb Kings (Done by llama)
Chaos Hordes (Panpiper has made a mod which isn't 100% finished but apparently covers most of this)
Empire (I am working on, handful of graphics and code)
Greenskins (Okin was working on, several graphics seen)
Bretonnia (Burnsaber is working on, several graphics seen)
Chaos Beasts (Zepath made some sprites for a chaos nation which included some beastmen, but other than that, nothing)
High Elves (I remember someone posted one or two graphics which looked ok - they are also /partially/ represented in Zepath's Sylvania)
Wood Elves (also partially represented in Sylvania, other than that, nothing)
Dark Elves (I made one unit graphic, someone made some slightly ropey looking ones from resizing the miniatures)
Dwarfs (There are some fantasy dwarf nations, but nothing warhammery really)
Chaos Dwarfs (Someone posted some decent sprites a while ago, for a few basic units)
Dogs of War/Tilea (I actually have code for about 10% of this, and some graphics never seen)
Araby (There are a couple of middle eastern mods, unfinished)
Vampire Counts/Sylvania (Partially covered, sort of, by Zepath's Sanguinia)
Classic Undead (Nothing here so far, really)

I think that's all of them. I might be missing something though.

Thank you. I'd say two things considering this list first: it makes no sense to make Arabia under this project until we know what Warhammer Arabia actually looks like (some Warhammer novels descripted it, but that isn't the same as an actual official description). As for Arabian mods under work, I wouldn't include them here. At least my unfinished one was planned as a part of Dominions world and its storyline, as were others which I saw. Considering "Classic" Undead it's possible to think of them as Nagash's army - but I don't think it would be particularly different from Vampire Counts if he would be acknowldeged in their descriptions. I think that differences between vampire bloodlines could be more trouble here and it may be necessary to make them into different nations (as it isn't possible to change recruitables, etc. according to the Pretender's choice). What would you say on this?
Of Warhammer nations not covered I think I can make either High Elves or Tilea realtively quickly. THe latter especially as they don't require much new graphics...

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Wrana

And this makes them somewhat interchangeable, also creating a reason for mod-maker to make his mod nation overpowering in an effort to make it different from an existing ones. I feel such an impulse myself sometimes and I think that something similar could afflict the author of the Tomb Kings...

I don't feel that Tomb Kings is overpowered, but if you have some insight on that front I'm certain llama would like to hear it in the Tomb Kings thread.

Thank you. I'd say two things considering this list first: it makes no sense to make Arabia under this project until we know what Warhammer Arabia actually looks like (some Warhammer novels descripted it, but that isn't the same as an actual official description). As for Arabian mods under work, I wouldn't include them here. At least my unfinished one was planned as a part of Dominions world and its storyline, as were others which I saw.

I'm not including them as Warhammer nations. I mentioned them for the same reason I did the zepath nations - parts of them could be repurposed.

I'm not sure what you mean by project, are you referring to your own bid to make all the WH nations? There isn't a whole lot on Araby, but there is source material and they got a limited selection of Warmaster scale models too.

Considering "Classic" Undead it's possible to think of them as Nagash's army - but I don't think it would be particularly different from Vampire Counts if he would be acknowldeged in their descriptions. I think that differences between vampire bloodlines could be more trouble here and it may be necessary to make them into different nations (as it isn't possible to change recruitables, etc. according to the Pretender's choice). What would you say on this?

Well, I think there are a fair number of differences between the classic undead army lists, which more heavily featured necromancers, liches etc and the Vampire Counts.

If I were doing all WH nations I would split undead into Tomb Kings, Sylvania (with mortal units alongside undead), Undead (in the classic sense, with necromancers and liches prominent) and Vampire Counts (featuring the 4? remaining vampire bloodlines).

But realistically I'm not likely to get all that done. And people want Empire before I start anything else.

Of Warhammer nations not covered I think I can make either High Elves or Tilea realtively quickly. THe latter especially as they don't require much new graphics...

Depends if you want to make a quality mod nation, or just bash one or two out to up the number of Warhammer nations for a Warhammer themed game or something. I personally believe Tilea/Dogs of War requires some of the most diverse and difficult graphical and coding work, but that's just my take on it. I go into a little more depth and detail than a lot of people would.

Anyway, I swear by the 141 unholy gods of Wimpole Hall I will resume work on Empire this weekend. For real.

[Wrana]

Thanks!
By project I meant what exists - as different people do different Warhammer nations with some coordination I think I saw. Maybe it's just me.
On Warhammer Undead I see your point. At the same time Necrarch bloodline I think was made as a replacement for old Liches/Necromancers. So at least them would take the same niche. Other lines also have slightly different realations with mortals. Another thing is that in Warhammer Necromancy is restricted to this serie of armies while even those of the others who clearly have access to Death magic (in Dominions sense) do not use zombies, etc. Possibly, it's just impractical, but this is one reason I think about total conversion...
As for Tilea I must note that it has units and characters which are quite the "human norm" as its core. This allows to use much conversion. Coding will necessiate more details, of course, but it's much easier for me than work on new graphics.