Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Trumanator

-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
Do YOU use the titan? He just doesn't have the utility of a number of other pretenders.

Yes I do. Ladies of love, lords of rebirth in particular.

-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
So mainly you don't like it cuz it annoys you? I wish a better solution could be found too, but it isn't that big a deal, and anything that encourages nationals is fine in my book.

Yes it's annoying as in not fun and that's not good in a game. You need leaders to just ferry troops around. Making them expensive isn't really a good option. It doesn't encourage nationals in my book. As I said, I would pay for a 60 gold indie leader if I can recruit a mage. I think the move is unneeded and without any good effect. It'll cost about 10 gold on first turns and that's about it. It also has very little effect for nations whose mages have good leadership.

-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
I'm confused by what your complaint here is. Is it that you still don't use it? How does it make Cons better than Evoc? A little more clarity would be appreciated.

Yes I still don't use it. It might be useful to go for Cosntruction rather than Evoc in order to get acid bolts earlier (through item).

-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
Confused about your complaint here too. I'm assuming you think its still not cheap enough/easy enough to cast?

It should be disposable/weaker in order to be worth the risk for summoning him. I can't think of many cases when I'd want to summon it whatever the cost right now.

-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
Your point? Slime is great, if anything it lets your W mages cast SOMETHING semi-useful

If it's great, why did it need a boost? Why should water mages be able to cast something that becomes more powerful than what Earth or Fire mages can cast at the same level?

-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
It doesn't work too much against early SCs, and by the time you get to late SCs you have better things to cast. Do you use it a lot?

No, I don't. But having it at level 2 seems a bit too early. If it targets mages or archers, it can be nasty.

-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
So people might use Orb Lightning, and because A magic is pretty ungodly good.

Leaves me unconvinced. Augmenting Orb lightning range would make it better without making lightning bolt less reliable against strong humans.

-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
What nation besides Machaka is going to cast this?

Do they have to have it cheap because they're the most likely to use it?

-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
I agree to a point, but I think 6 would be fine. I would prefer that Agartha's troops get a major boost.

Maybe 6 would be ok IF the troops got a boost.

-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
I don't know what these grey knights are? Indies?

Yes, indie ehteral knights. Very hard to balance/evaluate because you see them very very rarely.

[Ironhawk]

LDI, the trick with the staff of corrosion is to have low level water mages, not full-on acid capable mages use it. So your high level guy forges them, then your low level guys who have 1W and can cast Quickness use them to cast 2x acid bolts / turn. So it is more valuable that its easier to access now.

Basically I like all the changes in the latest round of CBM. I especially like that titans are cheaper since basically no one takes them. The gem bonuses are a nice touch - might need some balancing but overall good. One points LDI brings up intrigued me tho:

Indy commanders cost more? I hadnt noticed but I agree with LDI that this should not be the case. As the now-quite-old indy commander mapmove 1 debacle showed us: you cannot fix the national commander problem by messing with indy commanders. Indy commanders ARE the workaround to the game flaw of fort mage turns being so ridiculously valuable. Please dont nerf them or increase thier costs.

[Trumanator]

FYI, the titan researcher is only availabe to all Arcos, MA Pyth, and EA Ermor, who can easily have other priorities. ATM its just another viable option.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

WHAT realistic options for Agartha? They *have* none.

That's my point. Boosting umbrals again only makes this worse.

The fact you only get one doesn't make that much difference to LA Aggy for instance (which is plenty strong) - they're harder to mass but they're so cheap for how good they are that using your resources to do other stuff becomes a bit pointless. By moving them up in research it's much harder to rush to them and the hope is that it encourages other options. Now I personally think the other options need a boost, which is the whole point. With vanilla umbrals you hardly want to try anything else.

[LDiCesare]

I am curious though, you said a few changes in CB unbalance things a lot, which of these do you think do that? Most seem like rather niche things (like national spells), thematic complaints, or even just additional change requests CB hasn't made.

Mostly one change: umbrals. Without the change I will gladly play EA Agartha, with it I will not touch them, so it ruins an entire nation.
Also horrors. I don't think Bogarus needs them that much, and it boosts other nations without need.
I also admit that CBM needs rethinking a lot of things I learnt the hard way, and I should work more to learn it. It is not bad but makes me unhappy when I realise too late something was changed that I hadn't expected.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I appreciate the feedback, I hope other people also comment on these issues.

I have yet to see them used in any Dom 3 game, vanilla or CB. In fact I was even contemplating perhaps they are not boosted enough. Thinking about it, I think their unpopularity probably has to do with the Eye Shield, for 10n a generally more all purpose SC counter, that also lets you wield another weapon like a frost brand.

I used them with a lady of love who was quite efficient with them. A frost/fire brand + shield would have been stronger. They were still useful in expanding.

I don't completely understand what you are saying, it doesn't change much to lower it's level, but it makes construction more interesting than evocation?

If you want to get access to acid, instead of researching evocation you now research construction. I think at Cons 4 with a lower gem price it'd be better than Cons 2 with same price.

I'm not sure it's no-brainer, because it often comes after the caster's empire as well. In fact I once even had it kill the god that cast the global, dispelling itself.

I think they only attack blood mages? Which can restrict the risk a lot.

I hate to break it to you, but Bogarus uses horrors quite prolifically base game as well (just the send horror kind since the battle summon is so crappy). And, in fact, R'yleh has a horribly hard time using horrors in base game or CB

That's a mostly thematic complaint. To me horrors are yet another stuff from beyond the world like R'lyeh are. I don't understand why russian-like people would use these, particularly when they have tons of national summons. I feel they shouldn't have to use horrors. That's not so much a balance issue as something I feel unthematic.

That's a pretty minor tweak to think is greatly unbalanced. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain demons of the heavenly fire are too good.

I don't say it is greatly unbalanced. I just love them personally.

This does seem to be a widely unpopular change. I still think it's justified, but maybe I will look at undoing it. Do you think +1 gem cost would be more acceptable?

Yes.

I don't understand- they seem to fly just fine.

If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles.

Mainly, because I think she needs it more (rainbows get a bunch of extra research from magic picks). Also, it doesn't seem a goddess of knowledge should necessarily be less good at research than an uppity human sage.

Maybe but if you have to choose between her and the human sage, why would you pick the sage?

Not exactly, but they certainly make Man's other troops look bad. Keep in mind CB is not mostly about nation balance, it's about option balance. I could look again at making the other stuff cheaper instead, but keep in mind other people have complained about troops being arbitrarily cheaper in Cb (I like to keep to rules like spear = -1 gold). It's easier to increase cost for elite troops since it's vague exactly how how much bonus stats are worth gold wise.

I don't think the cost change makes much of a difference with regard to other troops. Spearmen sole use was they were 'fast'. Now axe and longspears are fast too. Unless I need mobility though, I still won't buy them over tower guards so the cost of tower guards/defenders doesn't do much to increase the value of the other units.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Mostly one change: umbrals. Without the change I will gladly play EA Agartha, with it I will not touch them, so it ruins an entire nation.
Also horrors. I don't think Bogarus needs them that much, and it boosts other nations without need.
I also admit that CBM needs rethinking a lot of things I learnt the hard way, and I should work more to learn it. It is not bad but makes me unhappy when I realise too late something was changed that I hadn't expected.

Heh, well that's a little deceptive to talk about CB unbalancing as much as helps, when the main problems only effect four out of 70+ nations (and one of them a thematic issue).

I'm really not sure what to make of your Bogarus/horror complaint, as your idea of theme seems to run directly counter to Illwinter's here. That said, on consideration I will probably make call lesser horror research level 2 instead of 1.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I used them with a lady of love who was quite efficient with them. A frost/fire brand + shield would have been stronger. They were still useful in expanding.

The issue is not if they can be used, it's if there is always a better option or not. As far as I can see (possibly even in CB) you would almost always rather an eye shield and any random weapon than the gloves.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

If you want to get access to acid, instead of researching evocation you now research construction. I think at Cons 4 with a lower gem price it'd be better than Cons 2 with same price.

I don't think that's the case- the staves are at best a compliment to normal acid mages. It's like saying what's the point of recruiting more than one mage to cast acid bolt, more is always better (and there is generally a much harder limit on how many staves you can do than mages).

Which is not to say I'm particularly opposed to lowering the price. But if I did it would probably be because they weren't get used much as is.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I think they only attack blood mages? Which can restrict the risk a lot.

Not always. It's not entirely clear what the formula is for who they go after, but I think they often hunt people high in the HoF.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I don't say it is greatly unbalanced. I just love them personally.

Um, OK, not seeing the problem- you like them, they are cheaper, not greatly unbalanced.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles.

Very odd, I'll try testing it myself. I don't think I will bump them back up in cost even if the problem is fixable though.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Maybe but if you have to choose between her and the human sage, why would you pick the sage?

The same reason anyone chooses a rainbow, for diversity, path combos and site searches. And besides that, pretenders only available to a few nations generally have to be a little better than ones available to almost everyone, or they will see almost no use.

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I don't think the cost change makes much of a difference with regard to other troops. Spearmen sole use was they were 'fast'. Now axe and longspears are fast too. Unless I need mobility though, I still won't buy them over tower guards so the cost of tower guards/defenders doesn't do much to increase the value of the other units.

I pretty much agree, I'm not very happy with how Man's troops stand (in either era). Not that I am any more happy with how they are base.

[LDiCesare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDiCesare View Post
If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles.
Very odd, I'll try testing it myself. I don't think I will bump them back up in cost even if the problem is fixable though.

After more testing, the problem is not Zmey, but fliers with a 'fire' order. Instead of jumping/flying where they could shoot, they crawl to that point. I reproduced with cockatrices ordered to fire: They moved twice before spitting. Zmeys do the same. This could be fixed by giving more AP but it would be broken since storms should cripple their movement . Augmenting the range of the breath weapons could mitigate the effect.

[chrispedersen]

Somewhere or other, there is a whole other thread on the Zmey issue.

In my tests - they never fired - they always flew and engaged hand to hand.

there were some very good posts made about flying archers - someone speciically quoting caelum - but I do not remember the results of the conversation.

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As for boosts to Agartha / Yomi - maybe QM would consider my changes?

But as for umbral I really think you need to return it to vanilla and then worry about how else to boost agartha.

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As for bogarus... horrors being unthematic.. are you kidding?
Read the text on Baba Yaga... plus you have a whole series of strange creatures out of folklore...

Plus the race was inspired by russia - with Rasputin, mystics, secret societies....

Plust starets are one of the few mages innately able to summon/call horrors... Hell yes!

[Fantomen]

Reading this conversation, this is my opinion:

Put the Umbral back at conj 5 (perhaps increase path req to D2E1 so you are dependant on boosters to mass them?)

Keep Call Horror at Blood 1. This opens for a different form of expansion strat with some nations without being overpowered. Exactly what CBM is about I´d say.

Give the Ancient one a long spear.

[chrispedersen]

giving the agarthans non parryable boulders was nice -
Giving the agarthan long spears might help.. but clubs + Aoe1 nets would help more.