[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Fyron]

Actually, no ballots were off. The recounts never actually came to the conclusion that more than a handful of ballots were miscounted against Gore.

[ April 16, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Cyrien]

The U.S. isn't on a rampage. The U.S. hasn't been on a rampage. Yes the U.S. has done some bad things. And so did Englang, and France, and Germany, and Italy, and Russia, and the Soviet Union, and CHina, and Japan, and Rome, and Persia, and every single other powerful nation in the world that also dealt with weaker nations.

It may be harsh to think of it in those terms but that is the way it has been historically. Stronger nations do have a tendency to be harsh and use strong arm tactics when faced by opposition from weaker opponents.

After all if you are the boss and someone beneath you objects to your plan AND you feel that that view point is entirely wrong as a matter of principle... do you just overrule them and use your authority or do you go down and talk it out?

In the modern world increasingly you talk it out. But that is a VERY new trend. Historically you use your authority and simply overrule them, often militarily.

Personally I think an approach right in the middle of the two is best. You need to apply military power at times. It is unavoidable in the real world. But you also don't want to leave to many hard feelings behind so you need to ballance it out with talk and not just absorbing the others, something which hasn't been done for quite awhile but which Iraq under Sadam tried to do.

I feel that the war is justified. Maybe the motivations for it are wrong. But you can do the right things for the wrong reasons, you just have to make sure those wrong reasons don't taint the process.

Just for the record I am against Bush I did vote for Gore but I support the War because it is the right thing to do. Getting rid of Sadam that is.
Most would consider me a Democrat and I probably am but I also almost always vote for several Republicans because I agree with them in areas. I vote for who I believe is best for the job, it just happens that most of the time that seems to be a Democrat for me.

[Cyrien]

That was my point. The whole ballot thing in Florida was just blown all out of proportion. If it wasn't for our silly Electoral College system it wouldn't even have been an issue!

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Cyrien:
The U.S. isn't on a rampage. The U.S. hasn't been on a rampage.

Come on, what happened in Granada, Panama, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Puerto rico, Guatemala, etc?
What was that thing with the United Fruit Company?
You may argue that it was not a rampage, and I probably agree. It was more like business. Anyway, whatever the US do will be seen as something evil, because being hated by the rest of the world always comes with the title of superpower.

Yes, I agree European countries have done worst, far worst, but that doesn't take the US off the hook.

[Aloofi]

Do you guys get the new Discovery Times Channel?
Its a co-production between Discovery and the New York Times, and is a little politically incorrect, if you know how to read between lines.....
Yesterday they claimed that the US didn't win the Afghan war.....

[Cyrien]

You are right. It doesn't take the U.S. off the hook. And none of the other nations are off the hook yet either. Historical abuses by strong nations of weak nations is probably a leading cause of modern violence against different ethnic, cultural, national, etc Groups in the modern world. Most probably aren't even aware of the ancient reasons. But the grandfather and great-grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-etc... all hated them and they hate us so lets go get em!

People continue to dislike and hate others long after the first reasons for it have been forgotten to all but students of history. But that won't stop em. After all it isn't hard to think up reasons to justify something that you are already doing. Much harder to admit that maybe you were wrong and the other guy might have been right or that just maybe both of you were wrong. After all... if you are wrong what has the point of it all been? And if both are wrong then it was all just a big waste. Much easier to just decieve yourself and say it all has a point and is for X, Y, and Z. Maintain the status quo of humans getting rid of humans for stupid reasons.

Can we make things betters? Yes. Will we? I'm not holding my breath, but here is to hoping. *Cheers*

Some have called me an optimist and others a pessimist.

I tend to think I am a realist with optimistic hopes and pessimistic expectations.



Nope. Never seen the Discovery Times Channel cept in a few commercials.

[ April 16, 2003, 22:00: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

[MegaTrain]

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Come on, what happened in Granada, Panama, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Puerto rico, Guatemala, etc?
What was that thing with the United Fruit Company?

Look, I'm not an expert on Central American politics and history, but even in these situations you'll have to admit that at worst these represent "meddling" with the administration of another country and at best were an attempt to free the citizens from tyranical leaders. Its not like we conquered and colonized. (Well, with the possible exception of Panama)

You may argue that it was not a rampage, and I probably agree. It was more like business. Anyway, whatever the US do will be seen as something evil, because being hated by the rest of the world always comes with the title of superpower.

Ah, now we're coming down to it. What we have to determine is whether an action by any nation is simply SEEN as something evil, or whether it REALLY IS evil.

Yes, I do believe in an object right and wrong, good and evil (go back a page or two for more on this).

[StarJack]

Originally posted by Cyrien:
Can we make things betters? Yes. Will we? I'm not holding my breath, but here is to hoping. *Cheers*
Some have called me an optimist and others a pessimist.
I tend to think I am a realist with optimistic hopes and pessimistic expectations..

That pretty much nails it for me too! Well said.

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Actually, no ballots were off. The recounts never actually came to the conclusion that more than a handful of ballots were miscounted against Gore.

Well more people in Florida went in with the intention to vote for Gore - just the "Buchanan voters" would have brought Gore over the top, Gore got more vote than any presidential candidate except for Reagan, and Gore won the popular vote by more than a million votes. Not to mention all the shenanigans that Jeb did to keep Gore supporters from voting - like designating people as felons who it later turned out weren't.

So even though Bush was selected he certainly didn't have a mandate.

Also Bush had a plan in place to challenge the election if the situation had been reversed - where he won the popular vote and lost the electoral vote - so I am not sure where all the moral superiority comes from.

The fact of the matter is the vote was a statistical tie and the closeness of the vote highlighted the problems that are in inherant in EVERY election - so the state should have been allowed to make it's own decision instead of having a decision imposed upon it at the federal leve. This would have been consistant with Republican politics and the majority of the court - until of course the election.

Also Bush's diplomatic team has been a dismal failure and I am absolutely sure that Gore would have done as good a job if not better.

[Fyron]

Intentions are irrelevant. It is who you voted for that matters. And there was nothing at all confusing about any ballot tickets. They were all very self-explanatory and had clear instructions written on them.

And, that statement about more going in with the intent to vote for Gore is mere propaganda. You have absolutely no valid evidence of such a statement.

None of my Posts have mentioned anything about moral superiority. Don't insert statements that I never made.

[ April 16, 2003, 23:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]