Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Blitz]

She can get afflicted to hell via poison as well. Not a prob with arco, but for everyone else.

quote:
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Originally posted by Zen:
Another thing. I always thought was a little bizzare. She's wielding a Flambeau and isn't fire Resistant. And if you've ever killed a Virtue with Holy Pyre, it's ironic as all hell
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Well, that's why you give her a hellsword.

Flame helmet is my FR item of choice these days

[ June 22, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Poison will kill her and in the hands of the right player, they will have one coming at you on turn 5ish if you try to use your Virtue in any SC capacity if you don't put one on her.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Blitz:
She can get afflicted to hell via poison as well. Not a prob with arco, but for everyone else.

Yes, that may be a problem. Still, poison isn't as dangerous for her as mass Incinerate/Frozen Heart if she lacks the ad hoc resistance(s). These may kill her in a single round, and Awe doesn't help here.

OTOH there aren't long range 100 prec poison spells. And poison kills over time, so its effect may be negated by regeneration if the Virtue gets enough buff from her dominion (sending her alone in enemy dominion where you expect to see a type of spells she's not resistant to is always a bad idea).

For the record, I've had a Virtue stand toe-to-toe and win a fight vs 4 Hydras in a Dom 1 MP game - she had regeneration but no poison resistance.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
No wonder you had bad experiences with her. That should be 5-10 kills a turn after you've researched a couple levels in Alteration and Evocation.

If you want to get to Thunder Strike, sure she'll kill more people. That's Evocation-4, though, and as I said, we're talking about the first 5 turns.

Though, if you can tell me how to get to Evocation-4 by turn 5, I'm all ears.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Zen:
Actually since the Virtue flies, she will cast her buffs, (say Mirror Image, Mistform, Air Shield, Resist Lighting) then set her to attack (1 Round) to get close to masses of the enemy, then cast with the Last order being casting spells. She'll do the smart thing and chaincast Shockwave as long as she has nearby units that the game finds feasible to cast on (I think as long as the squares are 50% full of units around her)

Nice trick. IIRC, though, what are the chances she'll be able to cast it while in melee? 50%? To put up those buffs sounds like Alteration-3 and Evocation-2 to me. The Shedu needs none of that to take provinces. True, the Shedu should have an army, but an army of Peltasts is sufficient for the purpose, at least on Indep5.

And, if I may, at the same time the Virtue gets Thunder Strike (far safer than the above, though not nearly as cool), the Shedu gets Blade Wind. That's a wash, to me.

What I've heard from people 'in the know' is that GE Arco needs someone to help them take early provinces. The Shedu, to me, looks like one of the best candidates to do so. Take your beginning army, make a Priestess + a whole bunch of Peltasts. Attack a Province with Shedu/Priestess/Peltasts, with the Shedu doing anything you want for two turns, and then attacking the rear. This basically times the first or second Javelin volley from your troops for when the Shedu starts trampling, and that _will_ rout almost any Indep5 province, and probably would do a good job on higher Ratings. This starts province taking on turn 3.

Also, I believe it was mentioned that the Philosopher isn't as big as an advantage as people think because it was capital-only, and therefore its importance lessens as you build more forts.

I think there is some merit in this statement, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Look at it this way. _Most_ nations can hire their best mages only in their capital, and their secondary forts can only hire the researchers. The ramifications of this is that it takes time for the 'good' mages to get to the front, and the researchers are more exposed, if an enemy can get through the fort.

GE Arco inverts these conditions. Now, your Researchers are based in your Capital, and your 'good' mages are based in any of your Forts. This allows for faster deployment of your mages, and gives greater security to your researchers.

[Blitz]

_Most_ nations can hire their best mages only in their capital

How many apparently magic based themes do you know that have exactly ONE mage? Heck, how many themes have one mage? Ulm, Ulm: IF, Pan: New Ara, and GE Arco?

[PvK]

Trollheim

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Blitz:
How many apparently magic based themes do you know that have exactly ONE mage? Heck, how many themes have one mage? Ulm, Ulm: IF, Pan: New Ara, and GE Arco?

First, GE Arco has two. The Mystic and the Priestess.

Second, how many nations use their weaker mages for anything other than research? There's Communion Slaves, and forging weaker items. That's about it. While _not_ inconsequential, the useful Nature items are not out of Arco's reach.

Third, it's not really about quantity so much as quality. The Mystic is generally considered one of the best mages in the game, if random. You can get 2+ in any of the Elemental paths. That's sort of the equivalent of 4 different mage types. Take a look at Mictlan's Mages. 3 of them are the same except for the non-Blood magic they get (with the small difference in the Priest King). If it were possible to get random picks restricted to specific paths, they could be represented by one unit.

With regards to the vaunted Seithkona, here's a scenario for you. You play Utgard Jotunheim, and I play GE Arco. You buy a Seithkona every turn for the first 21 turns (so you have 20), and I buy a Philosopher every turn for the same amount of time. Assuming an equal magic scale (a fair assumption, since your Cold-2 roughly balances with your 25 pt. charge for Utgard, plus my 40 points for Sloth), we will produce the same amount of research points in that time (assuming Magic-0, 1050) from these units. However, you will have spent a total of 3150 gold on your Seithkonur, while I will have spent 1749.3 gold on my Philosophers. This gives me 1400 more gold than you to be spent over 20 turns, for an average of 70 gold per turn. This only gets worse the longer we continue this.

If you think this is going too far in turns, then look at when we each have 10 (turn 11). For the same number of research points from these units, you'll have spent 1320 gold, and I will have spent 733.15. This difference is 586.85 gold.

Now, let's take a slightly different scenario. Assume that we have each bought one of our 'researchers' for the first ten turns, and then (from a second castle) bought ten more mages. Since I cannot get Philosophers in my second fortress, let me build Mystics instead. Let's see how we stand on turn 21 now.

You've spent 4626 gold total, have 31 Seithkonur, and made 1380 RPs (assuming Magic-0 scale).

I've spent 4701 gold, have 20 Philosophers and 11 Mystics, and made 1512 RPs (assuming Magic-0 scale).

Upkeep on these mages are 31 * 6 = 186 gold a turn for you, and (20 * 3.333)= 66.667 gold for the philosophers, and (11 * 9) = 99 gold for the mystics. This calculates to 165.667 gold total for me. You're still paying more for your researchers on maintenance (20g), and I'm producing more research. This is if I choose to maximize research. If I choose to minimize gold expenditure, I build Priestesses instead of Mystics, and I will spend less for my mages than you will on yours, and have less upkeep. I don't see how this is something against GE Arco.

I think, Blitz, that GE Arco is just something that doesn't work for you. That's nothing against you, but that's also nothing against GE Arco. Not everything has to play the same, and if you like the way that base Arco plays, but not GE, that's fine. Just don't try to dictate how others should play, and everyone will be fine.

[Blitz]

First, GE Arco has two. The Mystic and the Priestess.

So does Pangaea: NA I suppose. Her level 1 nature magic isn't irrelevant, but it's certianly not on par with most nation's secondary mages... even if she is a more efficient researcher and comes with different magic than the mystic.

Second, how many nations use their weaker mages for anything other than research? There's Communion Slaves, and forging weaker items. That's about it. While _not_ inconsequential, the useful Nature items are not out of Arco's reach.

Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.

I think, Blitz, that GE Arco is just something that doesn't work for you. That's nothing against you, but that's also nothing against GE Arco. Not everything has to play the same, and if you like the way that base Arco plays, but not GE, that's fine. Just don't try to dictate how others should play, and everyone will be fine.

I'd be happy to thrash you with GE arco. I've never said it was unplayable, merely weaker. Obviously from the poll, I'm speaking with the majority here. If you don't agree, that's fine... but it certianly isn't an indication of my inability to play the theme. As for dictating how people play? Not sure what you are talking about there.

[ June 23, 2004, 23:06: Message edited by: Blitz ]

I wouldn't take popularity as some sort of truth. Especially considering that GE is relatively new.