[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[tesco samoa]

Geo.

I have attempted to understand why the reasons for supporting the war and the reasons for not supporting the war. I am sorry that my Posts have led you to think that.

Tesco

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Jack Simth:

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
Don't even bother AK. It's very important for you to rememebr that being opposed to the war does NOT mean you were supporting Saddam. But if you supported the war it's ok for you to be labeled as bloodthirsty, uneducated, naive, deceived, disingenuous, or any other of a litany of negative characterizations. You can't take issue with them, you must simply accept them. Once you understand that it will go much easier for you.

Geoschmo

You realize, that by that logic, it means that if you oppose the war, you open yourself up to being called naive, impractical, uneducated, decieved, a passive supporter of tyrrany, or any other number of negative characterizations? Further, using the same logic, you have closed your own doors of taking issue with them; you have volunteered to remain silent.

Of course, that all assumes that you don't hold to a double standard....

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Geo's post was one of sarcasm aimed at those that refuse to see any point of view other than their own (such as Rex). People that don't think as they do can be labeled as idiots and such. But those same people can't label the first group as idiots because there is no possibility of the first group being in the wrong. They are absolutely right, so any criticism of them must be wrong. At least, that is the attitude some people here and many people elsewhere have displayed.

[ April 24, 2003, 21:00: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Geo.

I have attempted to understand why the reasons for supporting the war and the reasons for not supporting the war. I am sorry that my Posts have led you to think that.

Tesco

Tesco, I count you among those that I have been able to respectfully disagree with. You have no need to appologize.

Geoschmo

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
A.K. I for one hope you do not leave this thread.

It helps keep balance here. And I believe you will have alot of thoughts / opinions / links to add to the future debates over Iraq, War and Politics. Do not feel ashamed for posting your feelings to your fellow friends at this forum. They are read and thought about and answered. Your Opinion is important and has helped shape this thread to its current position. I hope you carry on with shaping it , debating it and reading it.

Your friend and fellow poster

Tesco.

P.S.

I hope you get better soon.

P.P.S.
Another link about WMD

http://www.detnews.com/2003/nation/0...ion-145152.htm

I appreciate your sentiments, and will consider them. One problem is that I am currently a person of limited time (I know, most are) and I have to decide where to spend my time. I can only devote a small amount of time to things SE and, for the most part, would rather spend my time on game oriented things than debating politics in an environment where I am unlikely to change any opinions.

The truly ironic part of this whole thing in my perspective is that I was not completely convinced of the necessity of this war before it began, though I have tended to sway towards support of it as things about Saddam's regime were revealed. I am also not entirely a supporter of President Bush (though I voted for him as I could not stomach Al Gore), but I find him more of a principled man than most in politics and do not like to hear him badmouthed as if he were the most evil man on the planet. I can think of a number of others that I would put higher on that list.

And here I am, spending time I should be doing BizTalk mappings, once again discussing this stuff. My wife has decided for herself that posting to forums is almost like drug addiction. You keep telling yourself that you can stop any time you want, but you want to make just one more post....

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
My wife has decided for herself that posting to forums is almost like drug addiction. You keep telling yourself that you can stop any time you want, but you want to make just one more post....

That may or may not be true about forums in general, but it certainly the case for this thread in particular. I can't count the number of times I have sworn off ever returning to this particular thread.

Geoschmo

[rextorres]

[quote]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

Geo's post was one of sarcasm aimed at those that refuse to see any point of view other than their own (such as Rex). People that don't think as they do can be labeled as idiots and such. But those same people can't label the first group as idiots because there is no possibility of the first group being in the wrong. They are absolutely right, so any criticism of them must be wrong. At least, that is the attitude some people here and many people elsewhere have displayed.

Since we are getting personal . . . it seems you label everything you don't agree with as "propaganda". Also I don't understand how you consistantly deny your a Republican even though every position I've read from you is consistant with a Republican position; are you being Devil's Advocate?

Anyway -

The huge massive industrial complex for WMD turns out not to be the dreaded "Winebagos of Death" after all but actually "the college students of death" who take the stuff home in their back packs at night and hide them in their refrigerator. Hmm. . . the cynical me thinks . . . I've probably produced more biological agents in MY refrigerator.

A majority of the "duped" believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 and that's the reason we attacked. The cynical me points to the fact that the Bush administration had been looking for an excuse to attack even before Bush was elected or that Al Qaeda hated Saddam as much as the U.S. No matter -that's not relevant.

It's ironic that the only reason for the war - it turns out - has been nation building. The cynical me thinks why were the Republicans so opposed to it almost 2 years ago?

Some people consistantly deny the war is about oil - forgetting 1000 of years of history where resources are what wars have always been about.

Finally while we've spent our tax dollars giving Iraq to Shiite extremists - NK all of a sudden has Nuclear Bombs and is threatening to use them. What the #@$@ are we doing in Iraq!!!?

Fyron - I am sorry that I refuse to believe the propaganda that you seem to like to get spoon fed to you by Shrub.

In the light of all this absurdity is it any wonder I haven't been swayed.

EDIT: BTW my wife wonders why I post as well.

[ April 24, 2003, 21:53: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[tesco samoa]

a little too personal.... I think we should switch to posting links about information on the topics...

Not get in a debate over personal feelings and all that.

Lets leave that alone. Everyone.

If you want to talk personal... send a PM.

[primitive]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Don't even bother AK. It's very important for you to rememebr that being opposed to the war does NOT mean you were supporting Saddam. But if you supported the war it's ok for you to be labeled as bloodthirsty, uneducated, naive, deceived, disingenuous, or any other of a litany of negative characterizations. You can't take issue with them, you must simply accept them. Once you understand that it will go much easier for you.

Geoschmo

Thanks Geo. It’s good to be remained of own shortcomings once in a while

I apologize if my postings have labelled ALL war-supporters as: bloodthirsty, uneducated, naive, deceived, disingenuous, or any other of a litany of negative characterizations.

That was not my intention, as I reserve those labels for a select few

However: If large quantities of WMD’s don’t turn up soon, I will reserve the right to use the label “deceived” on those supporting the war on that reason (and of course if the WMD’s are found I will have to endure the humiliation of that label put on me (and the UN inspectors)).

[Loser]

Originally posted by primitive:
However: If large quantities of WMD’s don’t turn up soon, I will reserve the right to use the label “deceived” on those supporting the war on that reason (and of course if the WMD’s are found I will have to endure the humiliation of that label put on me (and the UN inspectors)).

That's damn noble of you, and the correct prespective from which to view the matter, I think: patience. Wait and see, it will all be made clear with time. Then we will know. Then we will be better prepared for it the next time it comes up.

Originally posted by rextorres:
I don't understand how you consistently deny your a Republican even though every position I've read from you is consistent with a Republican position; are you being Devil's Advocate?

There are conservatives in this country that are not Republicans, friend. Making such assumptions risks having yourself rightly labeled as 'naive'. If you were not aware of political parties beyond the Big Two, or if you do not believe that Independent means _independent_, then I will simply assume that you have no education beyond public school, and will try not to hold that against you in the future.

Originally posted by rextorres:
The huge massive industrial complex for WMD turns out not to be the dreaded "Winebagos of Death" after all but actually "the college students of death" who take the stuff home in their back packs at night and hide them in their refrigerator. Hmm. . . the cynical me thinks . . . I've probably produced more biological agents in MY refrigerator.

It is the sensationalist press (nothing wrong with that, it makes money), that keeps jumping on the latest rumor of WMD. It is the kids with which these press members spend their time (really, look at the ages of these boys and girls), who are feeding them these leads.

We have yet to hear of a 'confirmed' WMD site from high up. Those who know what they're doing know this will not be easy. Saddam and his men were not fools, if they wanted to hide something, it will not be easy to find. Hell, unless I am mistaken, things hidden by the Nazis are still turning up in Europe every now and then, and you expect to find Saddam's greatest secret if a few weeks?

Originally posted by rextorres:
A majority of the "duped" believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 and that's the reason we attacked. The cynical me points to the fact that the Bush administration had been looking for an excuse to attack even before Bush was elected or that Al Qaeda hated Saddam as much as the U.S. No matter -that's not relevant.

It's ironic that the only reason for the war - it turns out - has been nation building. The cynical me thinks why were the Republicans so opposed to it almost 2 years ago?

Please continue to be cynical. Eventually, with age, you will turn your cynicism on your own beliefs, and that's where you might find wisdom. Just don't expect you're there before you're fifty.

Oh, and be careful with that word 'ironic': you keep using it carelessly and someone might mistake you for Alanis Morissette; the Last thing we need in this thread are semantic flames.

Originally posted by rextorres:
Some people consistently deny the war is about oil - forgetting 1000 of years of history where resources are what wars have always been about.

There are resources other than oil. I can't believe how many people say "oil, oil, oil" and forget that Iraq is the most strategically located country in the world! If you wish to throw around baseless accusations (and anyone can see you have not provided a base for this one, simply expecting it to stand on it's own merit), at least pick the good ones!

Originally posted by rextorres:
Finally while we've spent our tax dollars giving Iraq to Shiite extremists - NK all of a sudden has Nuclear Bombs and is threatening to use them. What the #@$@ are we doing in Iraq!!!?

North Korea HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!!! What the hell do you think U.S. _can_ do about that?!? What the hell would _you_ do about that smart guy?!?!

U.S. is going to play that one slow and careful for as long as they can. In case you haven't noticed, Kim Jun-Il has not even _tried_ to present himself or his administration as rational decision makers. My own, half-informed, suspicion is that they want the rest of the world to think they're nuts. Now _that's_ scary. There is nothing the U.S. government can do that could ever be as scary as that.

(Quick note, to those of you who may not understand how things like this work, not even a Superpower can invade a country that possesses nuclear weapons. The army of any developed nation may have had little to fear from Saddam's WMD arsenal, we have protection after all, but you cannot move against someone with bleeping nukes.)

Originally posted by rextorres:
I am sorry that I refuse to believe the propaganda that you seem to like to get spoon fed to you by Shrub.

One thing you should learn, young'un, is that saying someone is wrong is okay: that is a disagreement. Saying someone is wrong and not building a good arguement for why their wrong is still okay: that is disagreement without debate. Saying someone is wrong and that they did not decide to be wrong is an insult. It 'disenfranchises' them. It draws away from their identity. It says that they are not even a valid human, especially among a crowd like this, where we place such intense value on free will, individuality, and personal expression.

This is what you do every time you say that someone was 'duped'. This is what you do to the world at large when you say that current public opinions are only the result of propaganda. Saying things like this makes it clear that you hold yourself above the common man, that you see yourself as a member to some elite group, that you bear the horrible responsibility, the terrible burden of being the only one who really knows what is going on, that you know, you are so certain, that if only everyone was aware of the things that you are aware of, they would think the same way you do. When you deny someone the right to be accountable for their own thoughts, beliefs, and decisions, you are not only saying they are less of are person, you are specifically saying that you superior to them.

This is exactly what I did to you near the top of this post, and exactly what I did when I implied you errors were on account of your youth. Please take note of how that felt and try to keep that in mind the next time you feel like assaulting someone.

We hawks know what is going on. We know what we are supporting and why just as well as you do. We have our own reasons for believing what we do. Before you assume something as foolish as "They're just don't know what's really happening", consider that those who disagree with you may be aware of some things that you are not. When we share, we can get somewhere. You are not sharing, you are shoving.

To any who care, this is not a flame. This a an honest attempt to correct something I, as a sometime lurker, see as a rapidly developing problem. I will only try this once.

[tesco samoa]

Loser. I think that you have stepped out of line with that Last post. Perhaps you should have sent that in PM. I am trying to get this thread back on topic before it spins away and some good people here decide to leave because of personal attacks. Politics and Religion are heated topics. Things sway but once people release they have said some things that upset someone they attempt to work it out. I think you should re read what you typed there and think about it for a while.

Sorry but that is how I feel after reading your post.

I do not want to see this thread get locked down or deleted. There are many intelligent people here on both sides of the fence and in the middle who are posting and helping shape our understanding of all sides of this issue.

It is going that way, the way of the lock down.