patch 2.08 is out

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

I actually agree with you that it is unsatisfying to have creatures autokilled after 50 turns. I've had that happen to perfectly functional units that were still attacking at the end of turn 50, still very much alive and kicking. Zap! You're dead! You didn't finish the combat in time!

I still think that the lack of instant protection reductions for "defenseless," paralyzed creatures with no allies on the field of battle is a design flaw. And I'm not sure that you necessarily disagree with me, though you do seem to object to the death of paralyzed SCs.

So that we're actually addressing the other person's concerns in the situation, let me ask you this: What do you think the most detrimental yet fair thing would be that would most likely cause the death of a "defenseless" paralyzed supercombatant? We are talking about a supercombatant...let's leave aside what kind for the moment...which is paralyzed and has no allies on the field of battle either on the ground or associated with any defensive structure.

I can see removal of items that provide defensive shields, including charcoal shields. Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Let us assume for the moment that the devs would agree not to autokill attackers on the field of battle after turn 50.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Not quite correct. Spells like Fire Shield or Astral Shield may well prevent what you propose. Your argument, while having merit, also has holes. You may want to consider some other rationale to use versus NTJedi ...

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Items can be removed, spells wear off, and fear is not nearly as powerful as NT Jedi seems to think it is; it takes even militia quite a while to figure out that poking at the Doom Horror isn't the best idea, and Doom Horrors are a lot more fearful than a mere +2.

TRY removing a ring of regeneration from a paralyzed golem which has a clenched fist. Is not going to happen especially when the units lack the ability to do the necessary damage.

Second... militia are among the weakest military units... but they are still military. Citizens and farmers have a fraction of the military training and bravery to approach a size_6 Titan. Why should a farmer risk his life when he doesn't even know when the paralyzation is going to wear off. Also the scenario doesn't work for provinces with ZERO population.

[ February 17, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
NT Jedi,

I actually agree with you that it is unsatisfying to have creatures autokilled after 50 turns. I've had that happen to perfectly functional units that were still attacking at the end of turn 50, still very much alive and kicking. Zap! You're dead! You didn't finish the combat in time!

Yes this needs to be fixed.

What do you think the most detrimental yet fair thing would be that would most likely cause the death of a "defenseless" paralyzed supercombatant?

It all depends on the supercombatant... even a paralyzed supercombatant should be allowed to live if the attackers were all unable to do any permanent damage. Some units are immune to all elemental attacks, some don't have souls, some lack any blood and some are purely moving&attacking because of magic.

Example: Using the new AD&D rules... an Ancient Red Dragon wouldn't be dying from level_2 fighters with regular weapons.

I can see removal of items that provide defensive shields, including charcoal shields. Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Let us assume for the moment that the devs would agree not to autokill attackers on the field of battle after turn 50.

The act of removing the item cannot always be done. The clenched fist of a golem wearing a ring of regeneration. A fire shield held against the chest of the paralyzed titan. These cannot be removed without some form of attack.
And what about scenarios where after the battle which has paralyzation wear off before the fire_shield & astral_shield.

[ February 17, 2004, 20:02: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

In Dominions, there are no creatures which require magical weapons to hit them. You may argue that high protection is functionally equivalent to this. But there are some very mundane units with protection of 24 or so (ulm black knights).

Using the open d6 system, there isn't a single situation in which you can categorically say that "x unit" is incapable of doing permanent damage to "y unit."

You say that it depends on the supercombatant. Ok. Care to list a few SCs and describe to me what you feel would be the most detrimental yet fair disadvantages that they should face in the situation in which the SC is paralyzed AND there are no unparalyzed allies to protect the SC such that it is utterly "helpless?" I notice that other than saying that it depends on the SC you really didn't give an answer to this question.

I have always assumed that paralyzed units fall down. Why is it that you don't think a titan's shield could be taken without some form of attack? Why do you think that fists remain clenched when there is no muscle activity due to paralysis? (I concede you might have a point with regard to magically animated creatures...they would likely retain their posture prior to paralysis unless they were knocked down or something.) Of course, if your golem held a weapon, then it wouldn't have its fist clenched so as to keep and protect the regen ring, would it?

I suppose I have always assumed that a mage on the only side with non-helpless troops would assure that the astral and fire shields were removed prior to the expiration of paralyzation.

[Taqwus]

...not to mention that a paralyzed Titan should die of asphyxiation rather rapidly, as would most living units. That would make Illithids and even Dispossessed Spirits rather nasty, however.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
You say that it depends on the supercombatant. Ok. Care to list a few SCs and describe to me what you feel would be the most detrimental yet fair disadvantages that they should face in the situation in which the SC is paralyzed AND there are no unparalyzed allies to protect the SC such that it is utterly "helpless?" I notice that other than saying that it depends on the SC you really didn't give an answer to this question.

I don't think they should have _any_ disadvantages beyond those already obtained by being unable to move. They can't avoid being hit, and are likely to have their armour pierced. If they have significant natural protection then they should still experience the benefits of it. Their magic items should continue to function as normal, etc. The opposing army should be forced to attempt to kill them through whatever means they have available until the paralyzed unit regains mental control and continues to attack or flee as the situation warrants.

I suppose I have always assumed that a mage on the only side with non-helpless troops would assure that the astral and fire shields were removed prior to the expiration of paralyzation.

This assumes that you have a mage with the capability to do such a thing on the battlefield.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
...not to mention that a paralyzed Titan should die of asphyxiation rather rapidly, as would most living units. That would make Illithids and even Dispossessed Spirits rather nasty, however.

Paralysis is defined by the spell to be mentally overloading the victim, not shutting down all bodily functions.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
The unit itself counts. You specified a spellcasting sphinx. My scenario would not say that a spellcasting sphinx is helpless unless it were paralyzed or otherwise rendered helpless.

Why is the sphinx more helpless when paralyzed than when not paralyzed? It's still just a hunk of rock. If the military units can't damage it during a battle while it's not responding, then it will wake up soon enough and start spellcasting again.

However, if a soulless has a month to rip apart a helpless sphinx...well, that soulless must have undead leadership or it wouldn't be on the battlefield at all. So the soulless and its undead leader slowly manage to chip away at the head of the sphinx, not sleeping because they are undead and require no sleep, over a period of an entire Calendar month, thereby expelling the vile spirit that inhabited the sphinx into the void.

They don't have a month though. They have only as long as it takes for the statue to wake up. And no matter how much it pounds away at a piece of rock, a soulless isn't going to damage it more than superficially with its fists. Especially when it's a piece of rock that automatically rebuilds itself within a months time.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by josh_f:
army8.trs 292 KB
res.trs 76.KB
I also redownloaded the patch to no affect.

Seems correct. These files were in the full dominions.app not the patch one right?

Has anyone else tried the OS X patch and if so what was your result?