Mod: Conceptual Balance 1.21

[Sombre]

Couple more little issues.

The Knight Commander unit #23 has hoof when he should have warhorse hoof.

I still believe the Great Bear unit got via sloth of bears and summon animals needs a bite attack. He currently just has claw and with att 9 rarely hits much - Bears can obviously attack with their claws and bite and are known as extremely fearsome animals, so for me it makes total sense for them to have this second attack. There are plenty of similar creatures who get two attacks in this way.

For MA Shinuyama, Bakemono Shamans which are H1 + 1 random EFWD I believe,.. cost 90 gold? Seems a bit pricey. I know they are stealthy bakemono leaders with 40 leadership but they only have 2RP so even with magic 3 they aren't optimal researchers really. I basically don't build them.

Also the Bakemono scout has 40 leadership. This is actually very useful because otherwise you don't have a leader with forest and mountain survival and stealth to lead your little bakemono around,... but I'm not sure if it's intentional. He costs a mere 25 gold.

I could go on a bit about some of the national summons for Shinuyama, but I believe I've already done that. They aren't exactly a great deal currently.

Finally on the Bakemono theme,..I know I say this every time but WHY ARE BAKEMONO SIZE 2? They are so clearly size 1 units that it hurts my brain to try and think of KOs reasoning for them being size 2. The tiny little oni are the same size and those are size 1. Vaetti are the same size, have similar equipment/role/genetics,.. and they are size 1. Clockwork horrors are size 1. Hoburgs are size 1. I just don't get it.

[Sombre]

I was also wondering about crude shortbows. They don't appear to work with flaming arrows, which is a fairly major nerf to the races that use them. Just thought you should keep it in mind - it's probably more of a drawback than the -1 to dmg and prec.

Perhaps the armoured bakemono archers should have regular shortbows.

[Renojustin]

Is there a complete list of the changes that this mod will effect as opposed to having no mod at all?

[quantum_mechani]

Not as of the moment. The readmes cover a lot, but they are significantly out of date. One of the reasons the next version is taking so long is I want to update the documentation as well.

[Renojustin]

Great, I'm playing in a game with the mod and I have no idea what's in it.

Kind of a big advantage to the people who already know the permutations, ouch.

In fact, I can't even find a link to 1.0 for the original changes, that all the rest are just updates to... the links in the 1.1 thread are broken. This is a frustrating mod to use if you haven't followed it along for the last few years or however long it's been in existence, and it's quite difficult trying to research the changes so that I can knowedgably create a pretender that is effective, when there isn't even a place to start!

[Endoperez]

I had that exact same problem too. That's why I didn't want to get into CB at all.

Quantum claims that now everything is useful, at least in some situations... It's probably better to look how the changes affect your national mages and choose a simple, strong pretender. Lord of War and Celestial General and some other pretenders like Lord of the Gates now generate lots of chaff or even some useful units. Getting dozens of indy medium infantry and knights can be useful.

[Dragar]

I'm in the same boat. So basically I just picked a race, played a few times in SP modifying pretender to get what ithink isbest, and will play it by ear

As a new player I would prefer it if people didn't run MP games on mods which aren't fully documented, but hey its my choice to play it!

[Sombre]

Notes on bogarus summons. I'm going to organise all of my notes and comparisons between cbm and basegame summons into a doc in the near future.


BOGARUS LA

Conjuration

Summon Simargl - A1, RL2 - 1 / 1 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM.

Castability: Very Easy. With flight and patrol bonus 10 these things are damn near the perfect patrollers. In fact they're basically Celestial Hounds with all the patrol and little of the combat ability. I personally think they'd be more fun if there were lots of them and they had less patrol bonus. I think bringing their patrolbonus down to 3 and setting them at 2 / 5 would be a good idea - that way they might also be used in a combat role now and then.

Summon Firebird - F1S1, RL3 - 1 / 2 Vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Nearly as fragile as a random hawk and size 3, but with an 10 ap capped damage fire attack - still don't hit very hard. The problem is they're too expensive and too hard to mass given their ridiculously short life expectancy and fairly weak offense. The concept here is a unit which can harm ethereals/elites and is pretty destructive, like a one-off fire spell. I think they should be given a medium fireshield and firepower 1 (more thematic than anything). Cost of 5 / 4 or even cheaper is needed to make them useful.

Summon Lady Midday - A1D1, RL3 - 1 / 1 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Average. One in four Starets can cast this, but they will almost certainly have better things to do. Fear 0, flight, ethereality and a powerful weapon is counterbalanced by subhuman stats. Everything about them screams undead to me, yet they are magic beings. With flying boots you can have a commander lead a squad of them around, but they're very hard to mass. They're sort of like downgraded Morrigans though one use for them might be attacking and diseasing a SC pretender. I'd like to see them at 5 / 5 or thereabouts.

Contact Sirin - S2, RL3 - 1 / 8 Vanilla, 1 / 8 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A straightforward flying seducer. Note that as seducers and not succubi, they need to border your territory which makes them less impressive. They do seem to have decent seduction ability, though they are unlikely to kill anything but the weakest mage if they fail. I think the cost is ok, though astral pearls are worth more.

Send Vodyanoy - W2, RL4 - 1 / 20 Vanilla, 1 / 20 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Remote Commander summon. None of the recuitable mages can cast this, but it is only W2 and provides a W3N1 mage itself, so it could get cast. It's unusual in that it's an aquatic unit with stealth. W3 is pretty useful but combined with N1,.. CLAMS AHOY! It's a really good summon with two big drawbacks in that it's aquatic only and, for Bogarus, very hard to cast. Cost seems ok therefore.

Summon Rusalka - W1D1, RL4 - 1 / 16 Vanilla, 1 / 16 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Like the Vodyanoy, she can't be cast by recruitables but if you get one, it can summon more. She's another seducer, this time amphibious, which could maybe come in handy. As a mage summon she's W1D1 so doesn't grant any new paths and her ability to lead troops underwater only extends to 5 guys, which is effectively useless. Hard to cast, no clear use,.. 1 / 10 or even lower.

Contact Alkonost - S2, RL4 - 1 / 15 Vanilla, 1 / 15 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. You get a H3 flying commander with standard 20, so clearly it's good for supporting mundane troops. Bogarus' regular H3 is rarely built after all. I think the cost might be ok due to niche uses, though I think she should have magic leadership to lead firebirds and middays.

Summon Likho - D1, RL4 - 1 / 10 Vanilla, 1 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. They can spam curse and as ranged units can be told to target large units for example. But that's all they can do - curse one thing per round. Curse is annoying but hardly terrifying. I think they're supposed to be used vs multiple elite units, but even there just cursing stuff isn't very helpful. I would never, ever pay 10 gems for one. I suggest 1 / 2. It seems drastic, but they really do need that kind of reduction to be worth it.

Summon Zmey - F2, RL5 - 1 / 8 Vanilla, 1 / 8 CBM. Castability: Easy. All Starets can summon these and Alchemists could with a small boost. The fact that these are cold blooded is a bit of a pain, but they are offensively powerful and fairly tough. Like upgraded wyverns. Though they have a breath attack their utility is as melee fliers. I am unsure if these are affected by the Dragon Master spell, which is a major consideration when costing. If they aren't, I think they should be considerably cheaper - 1 / 4. Though better than wyverns they are harder to cast, higher research and national, after all.

Send Bukavac - W4, RL5 - 1 / 5 Vanilla, 1 / 5 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Remote Indy? summon. Even harder to cast than the Vodyanoy. To be honest I can't comment on this currently because I'm not sure if it's an indy summon or what. If it's a troop summon you clearly can't use it offensively. I will say the unit itself is pretty impressive - similar to an asp turtle.

Contact Gamayun - S3, RL5 - 1 / 25 Vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. You get a S2A2H2 flying commander with fortune teller. As a mage summon the paths aren't helpful, but as a commander it has clear utility and fits a variety of roles. It's one of those jack of all trades mid level commanders like the Kinnara for monkey nations. With 30 magic leadership it can lead your middays and firebirds. The only trouble is that it doesn't give anything new for the price - I think 1 / 20 would be better.

Contact Beregina - W3E1, RL6 - 1 / 35 Vanilla, 1 / 35 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Like the previous two water summons, this requires planning to cast. Unlike it's little sister the Rusalka it isn't a stealthy seducer. Instead it has W3E1N2, so it actually does offer a new path in nature. It's amphibious and can bring 10 people underwater with it,.. the problem is it's hard to cast and in many cases the Vodyanoy is going to be a better bet. I suggest a reduction to 1 / 25.

Contact Cloud Vila - A4, RL7 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. Although Bogarus has A2 mages it has virtually no chance of A3 and air is hard to boost up. Cloud Vilas are A3S1N2 so do offer diversity, though they aren't a great deal for that. They are nice flying mages but aren't thuggable unlike Air Queens. They're more comparable with Faery Queens - they have heal 20 instead of 30 and weaker nature magic. They also don't come with sprites. Overall Faery Queens are better and only one research level higher. Cloud Vilas are slightly easier to cast, but not by much. I think they should be 1 / 30 to reward actually getting A4 and to elevate this national above the faery queen. They do have seduce but I'm not sure how strong it is.

Contact Mountain Vila - N4, RL7 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Bogarus has no nature mages. This summons one of course. Your best bet to getting the nature required is by boosting the N2 Cloud Vila. The problem is the Cloud Vila is also hard to cast. They don't fly, are N3S1A2 and are healer 40, twice as good as Cloud Vilas. One comparison here is with Ivy Kings who also offer N3, worse mages, but tougher and cheaper. Mountain Vilas are fragile like their Cloud sisters and slightly worse battlemages. Again I think 1 / 30. They offer little in the way of paths, but do have some useful abilities like healer and seduce (depending on how good it is).

Contact Leshiy - N6, RL8 - 1 / 60 vanilla, 1 / 60 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. If you can get to N4 for the Mountain Vila you can probably stretch to N6 for this. Outside of forests he basically sucks with crappy magic and a lack of brawn. In a forest he's a size 6 monster with N4E2A2W1, full slots, a great deal of brawn, regen - plus he can change into a size 6 trampling super bear. He's definitely cool and a powerful SC chassis, but ONLY in the forest. As a mage summon he nets you no new paths. For that reason I think he should be substantially cheaper, like 1 / 40.

[Sombre]

LA GATH

Conjuration

Summon Mazzikim - N1, RL3 - 8 / 3 Vanilla, 8 / 3 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These are basically imps. Their high defence is a plus and they have two attacks and good att, but with low str they aren't going to do that much in combat. Their cost is already pretty much fair, which sets the tone for these summons.

Call Malakh - S2, RL4 - 1 / 9 Vanilla, 1 / 9 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. The Malakh is potenitally thuggable, though its stats are only that of a semi-elite human warrior. It does have stealth, shock and fire res 50 and awe+3 as well as flight with mapmove 4. Having full slots it makes an ok budget raiding thug along the lines of the black servant or Bane, since it's H1 it benefits from a bless too. They have no leadership ability so that's all they're good for. I think the price is ok for that.

Summon Lilot - N4, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. You can get them by climbing nature the traditional way using an Abba as a base. These are effectively the same as Succubi - they have the same version of seduce that brings the converted commander to your home province. They have ever so slightly worse stats than the blood summon, but it's barely noticeable. I think they might be slightly overpriced and I'd be happier with them at 1 / 20 or so. They are just weaker succubi after all.

Call Hashmal - S3F1, RL6 - 1 / 21 vanilla, 1 / 21 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. None of your recruitables have the magic to cast them and even getting S and F on one caster is quite unlikely. Still you can get to S3 with a boosted Kohen Gadol and then empower with 1 fire. These guys are clearly made for thugging. Awe+4, fireshield 8, H2, flying, ethereal, fire immune, shockres - only drawback is only 2 hand and 2 misc slots. Still I think they're well worth the cost as anti chaff thugs.

Call Arel - S4N1, RL7 - 1 / 39 vanilla, 1 / 39 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. You're again looking at boosting S2 to S4 then empowering to cast. These aren't made to be thugs, but they could perform the role slightly better than Malakhs due to higher hp and awe+5. Their real feature is healer 50 which is pretty impressive and N3H3, which does provide Gath with a new path,.. sort of. It's not worth it to get them as thugs, not really worth it for the paths either. I think they need a cost decrease, but there seems to be some thematic pricing going on, so I don't know what to suggest, maybe 1 / 31 ?

Call Ophan - S5F2, RL8 - 1 / 49 vanilla, 1 / 49 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. Everything that is true of the Hashmal is also true of the Ophan, though the Ophan is an upgrade in almost every respect with better hp, awe, fireshield, H3 and full shock and poison immunity on top of the fire immunity. Crucially they have natural prot of 21. They are enc 1 flying tramplers and they have patrolbonus 50, not that you'd use them for patrolling. You also get mapmove 5 and they're lifeless which is a plus for avoiding certain pitfalls. They are pretty much the ultimate chaff killers. The only downside is they only have 2 misc slots. I think the price is probably fair.

Call Merkavah - S7F3, RL9 - 5 / 222 vanilla, 5 / 222 CBM. You get 1 Chayot commander and 4 Ophanim troops. Castability: Impossible. Almost certainly a pretender summon. The Chayot is a completely bat**** unit on par with the Seraph. It has 4 forms - S4, A4, F4 and E4 which it can change through at will. They are all shock, fire and poison immune, have awe+6, H4, flight with mapmove 6, fireshield 10, full slots and excellent stats. If he's in his S4 form in battle you have to kill him 4 times effectively before he dies. If he's A4 it's 3 times, F4 it's 2 and if he's in E4 by choice you can finally kill him with no second shapes. All this and he isn't even unique. The Ophanim are nearly as good as troops as they are as commanders. I don't even know where to start with a spell summoning this much muscle. I think 222 seems reasonable though. It really is that powerful.


Enchantment

Memories of Stone - D2E1, RL5 - 5+ / 10 vanilla, 5+ / 10 CBM. Castability: Easy. Fossil warriors are magic and undead which is extremely unusual. Like statue summons they have super high prot of 25, enc 0 and are actually pretty solid in combat. I think the costing here is fine. It's much like 'enliven statues' really.


Blood

Summon Se'irim - B2, RL3 - 8 / 33 vanilla, 8 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These guys have some serious offensive power with 3 attacks at str 16 att 13 and berserk +4. They're also sacred. I'm pretty sure they're costed about right - great summon.

Summon Shedim - B3A1, RL4 - 3 / 32 vanilla, 3 / 32 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. Essentially you have to empower a boosted Kohen Gadol in air, but have no access to air gems. If you compare them with storm demons they are physically a bit more powerful and better in melee, but lack ethereality. Other than that they are very similar and should be costed similarly. Hence I suggest 3 / 20.

[Sombre]

MA ASHDOD

Conjuration

Summon Mazzikim - N1, RL3 - 8 / 3 Vanilla, 8 / 3 CBM. Castability: Average. Though Ashdod has no nature mages, getting N1 with indies isn't hard and that's all you need. Of course you'll probably be short on gems making them less attractive. These are basically imps. Their high defence is a plus and they have two attacks and good att, but with low str they aren't going to do that much in combat. Their cost is already pretty much fair.

Call Malakh - S2, RL4 - 1 / 9 Vanilla, 1 / 9 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. The Malakh is potenitally thuggable, though its stats are only that of a semi-elite human warrior. It does have stealth, shock and fire res 50 and awe+3 as well as flight with mapmove 4. Having full slots it makes an ok budget raiding thug along the lines of the black servant or Bane, since it's H1 it benefits from a bless too. They have no leadership ability so that's all they're good for. I think the price is ok for that.

Summon Lilot - N4, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Ashdod has no nature mages, so getting to N4 and having the gems is unlikely outside of a pretender choice. These are effectively the same as Succubi - they have the same version of seduce that brings the converted commander to your home province. They have ever so slightly worse stats than the blood summon, but it's barely noticeable. I think they might be slightly overpriced and I'd be happier with them at 1 / 20 or so. They are just weaker succubi after all.

Call Hashmal - S3F1, RL6 - 1 / 21 vanilla, 1 / 21 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. The Talmai has less than 1% chance of being S3F1. Hence this requires empowering a S3 Talmai in fire. These guys are clearly made for thugging. Awe+4, fireshield 8, H2, flying, ethereal, fire immune, shockres - only drawback is only 2 hand and 2 misc slots. Still I think they're well worth the cost as anti chaff thugs.

Dirge for the Dead - D3H1, RL6 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon, Summons up a Ditanu. These guys have only weak magic but great stats for thugging. Essentially ethereal fear+1 rephaim commanders. They come with full slots and decent equipment out of the box and are sacred. Price seems fair.

Call Arel - S4N1, RL7 - 1 / 39 vanilla, 1 / 39 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Ashdod has base S3 mages which helps, but have more trouble than Gath getting nature gems to empower. These aren't made to be thugs, but they could perform the role slightly better than Malakhs due to higher hp and awe+5. Their real feature is healer 50 which is pretty impressive and N3H3, which grants nature access to Ashdod, something they lack entirely. Possibly worth it for the path, almost certainly not worth it as a thug. I think they need a cost decrease, but there seems to be some thematic pricing going on, so I don't know what to suggest, maybe 1 / 31?

Call Ophan - S5F2, RL8 - 1 / 49 vanilla, 1 / 49 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. Everything that is true of the Hashmal is also true of the Ophan, though the Ophan is an upgrade in almost every respect with better hp, awe, fireshield, H3 and full shock and poison immunity on top of the fire immunity. Crucially they have natural prot of 21. They are enc 1 flying tramplers and they have patrolbonus 50, not that you'd use them for patrolling. You also get mapmove 5 and they're lifeless which is a plus for avoiding certain pitfalls. They are pretty much the ultimate chaff killers. The only downside is they only have 2 misc slots. I think the price is probably fair.

Banquet for the Dead - D4H1, RL8 - ? / 55 Vanilla, ? / 55 CBM. Castability: Easy. Summons 1 Malik commander and ? Ditanim troops. An additional cost is the death of the caster. I'm not sure exactly how many Ditanim troops you get, but it can't be many. The Malik is basically an undead ethereal fear+7(!!) Malqart. Where the Ditanu is a thug, this is potentially an SC. Again, full slots, sacred and good starting equipment, but here you also have useful buffing magic - D2B2H2 with 2 in a FES random as well. This does give Ashdod access to blood, but only B2 and they still don't have a blood hunter of any sort, so it isn't hugely important. It's worth noting these guys have shattered soul 15%. If there are 4 or so Ditanim (as I suspect) this is a well costed spell and needs no change.

Call Merkavah - S7F3, RL9 - 5 / 222 vanilla, 5 / 222 CBM. You get 1 Chayot commander and 4 Ophanim troops. Castability: Impossible. Almost certainly a pretender summon. The Chayot is a completely bat**** unit on par with the Seraph. It has 4 forms - S4, A4, F4 and E4 which it can change through at will. They are all shock, fire and poison immune, have awe+6, H4, flight with mapmove 6, fireshield 10, full slots and excellent stats. If he's in his S4 form in battle you have to kill him 4 times effectively before he dies. If he's A4 it's 3 times, F4 it's 2 and if he's in E4 by choice you can finally kill him with no second shapes. All this and he isn't even unique. The Ophanim are nearly as good as troops as they are as commanders. I don't even know where to start with a spell summoning this much muscle. I think 222 seems reasonable though. It really is that powerful.


Blood

Summon Se'irim - B2, RL3 - 8 / 33 vanilla, 8 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. No blood magic on recruitables, no blood hunter. Ashdod can get to blood via summoning of Maliks, but essentially they aren't going to be using this spell. These guys have some serious offensive power with 3 attacks at str 16 att 13 and berserk +4. They're also sacred. I'm pretty sure they're costed about right - great summon, just not for Ashdod.

Summon Shedim - B3A1, RL4 - 3 / 32 vanilla, 3 / 32 CBM. Castability: Impossible. You'll basically need a pretender for these and even then you haven't got a blood hunter. If you compare them with storm demons they are physically a bit more powerful and better in melee, but lack ethereality. Other than that they are very similar and should be costed similarly. Hence I suggest 3 / 20.