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  #1211  
Old May 9th, 2003, 05:11 PM

tesco samoa tesco samoa is offline
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Lets do a WMD update.

For those of you keeping score at home, here is our Altercation-exclusive State of the Union - Weapons of Mass Distraction scoreboard:

“...Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax - enough doses to kill several million people. He has not accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”

Liters found in Iraq this week: Zero
Liters found in Iraq to date: Zero

“...Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin - enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He has not accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”

Liters found in Iraq this week: Zero
Liters found in Iraq to date: Zero

“...Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard, and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents also could kill untold thousands. He has not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.”

Tons found in Iraq this week: Zero
Tons found in Iraq to date: Zero
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  #1212  
Old May 9th, 2003, 05:19 PM

Loser Loser is offline
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
Salaam Pax made it through the war alive fortunatly. He has updated his blog.
...
Geoschmo
Yay!
Everyone who thinks about posting in this 'heated' thread should go read that.

Of WDMs, it is still too soon to expect results. I will hold that line for one year.
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  #1213  
Old May 11th, 2003, 03:57 AM

tesco samoa tesco samoa is offline
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Nice

http://www.kron.com/global/story.asp...Type=Printable

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/1607366.php

and one of the funniest tongue in check Posts

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article...nested&order=0

P.S. SmirkingChimp is a little out there ( actually alot out there, read it and then look for supporting documents..... but i liked this one )

[ May 11, 2003, 03:14: Message edited by: tesco samoa ]
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  #1214  
Old May 11th, 2003, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Freedom of speech? Or is it boys will be boys? The teacher's and parent's at Columbine got critisized in hindsight for disregarding comments made by Harris and Klebold. I guess you really are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Geoschmo

EDIT: So what's the deal here Tesco? Has this thread changed from a discussion of the rightness or wrongess of the war in general and is now a forum for any sort of complaint or disagreement with the administration and it's polcies? That's fine if it is. You have the freedom to express those opinions. But maybe we should be honest and change the title of the thread to "I hate George Bush."

[ May 11, 2003, 03:21: Message edited by: geoschmo ]
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  #1215  
Old May 11th, 2003, 04:24 AM

tesco samoa tesco samoa is offline
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

i do not know Geo. I posted the first one all buy itself... Then I re-read it and thought. Well what did they say. So off looking for the second one....

I think if I was the teacher I would have pulled them aside and told them that they should not say those words and explain why. And then leave it at that.

But I also believe that Oakland has zero tolerance ( which is a stupid stupid theory and practice ) so the teacher would have to bring this up.

I do think the pull aside is the thinking and harder path for the teacher to follow but the correct one.

It is one thing to say you disagree with the Prez. but it is quite another to state that he should be capped, and it should be delt with right there and then in a class room.

Just some thoughts - MAC 2002
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  #1216  
Old May 11th, 2003, 04:27 AM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

hmm seems you edited you post while i was posting that Last one there... No I think that the title is still working and that these Posts are within context of this thread.
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  #1217  
Old May 11th, 2003, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Quote:
Originally posted by tesco samoa:
I do think the pull aside is the thinking and harder path for the teacher to follow but the correct one.
You can think that, but you can't possibly know that without knowing the teacher and the students. Nothing in either article says anything about the students previous history. Nothing in there says whether the teacher maybe was right to take a threat seriously.

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  #1218  
Old May 11th, 2003, 05:44 AM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

My first thought was the teacher perhaps did over react by calling the Secret Service, but as Geo said, we dont have all the facts so perhaps the teacher did what she felt was right. I am surprised that the teacher made that call since that part of California is very liberal (that was the area where the teachers tried to make Ebonics a legal language).

The teacher Cassie Lopez said in the article "They were so shaken up and afraid", well the kids should be, perhaps they will think twice before they open their mouth again. I think we have gotten to the point (in the USA) that people think they are not responsible for their own actions.

There is one thing about what they did, the President had nothing to do about it. The Secret Service will do what ever THEY think is the best for the safety of the President (regardless of party affiliation).
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  #1219  
Old May 11th, 2003, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

An interesting piece of reading that made me really uneasy. I am interested by comments of US citizen about it.

================================================== ===============

STRATFOR'S GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE REPORT
http://www.stratfor.com
9 May 2003

================================================== ===============

* New Resolution Would Solidify U.S. position as Global Hegemon

.................................................. .................

Today's Featured Analysis

New Resolution Would Solidify U.S. Position as Global Hegemon

Summary

The United States has presented a resolution to the U.N. Security Council that would suspend the sanctions regime and transition the oil-for-food program in Iraq into a different form. The resolution is an attempt to get a U.N. stamp of approval on coalition efforts in Iraq -- which in reality will continue regardless of the Security Council's actions. But more than that, it is a challenge to every state that opposed U.S. policy in Iraq and a threat to those who might do so again.

Analysis

The United States presented a new resolution to the U.N. Security Council on May 9. At its core, the resolution would lift all sanctions against Iraq, legalize Iraqi oil sales, give the coalition de facto control over revenue from those sales for reconstruction purposes, and grant international approval to coalition efforts, both past and present.

But the resolution has a second implication. The Bush administration is giving countries that opposed its efforts in Iraq a Last chance to acquiesce to U.S. policy, or suffer the consequences of being in the bad graces of a global hegemon.

The Resolution

First and most important, the resolution would extend the legal cover granted by the oil-for-food program for another four months as the program is slowly phased out. This would allow Iraq to sell oil without the risk that proceeds could be seized by Iraq's numerous international creditors.

Second, income from Iraq's oil would flow into an Iraqi Assistance Fund instead of its oil-for-food escrow account -- which is controlled by the United Nations. Although the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank would hold seats on an advisory board that oversees the fund, the coalition ultimately would decide when and how to spend the money. This authority would apply retroactively to the existing oil-for-food program, making it unlikely that, for instance, the $1.6 billion in contracts currently held by Russian companies would ever generate revenue. This also would provide the legal basis for the World Bank and IMF to return to Iraq. Currently, since there is no recognized government, the two organizations have no legal standing to assist in the country's reconstruction.

Third, there would be no role for U.N. weapons inspectors, whose job would be formally taken over by the coalition.

Fourth, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan could appoint a coordinator to assist in reconstruction efforts. This coordinator would have, at best, moral authority and the ability to offer recommendations. But the day-to-day presence of a representative of the U.N. Secretariat would grant international approval, both de facto and de jure, to future coalition actions.

Fifth, the resolution declares that all products originating in Iraq and the proceeds from their sale "shall be immune from judicial, administrative, arbitration or any other proceedings arising in relation to claims against Iraq or the Authority [the coalition]." In other words, this means Iraq and its resources would belong to the coalition. All legal claims against the past and current government by countries that received oil contracts from the Hussein government, were owed debts by Hussein or lost business because of the coalition's actions would be null and void. The coalition's aim appears to be to protect future coalition government actions from any and all legal suits.

Finally, the resolution would lift all sanctions against Iraq except those prohibiting the import of weapons.

In short, the resolution touches on all of the issues to which the coalition of states that opposed U.S. efforts in Iraq object. It would retroactively legitimize U.S. actions, eject all non-coalition interests from Iraq and enshrine U.S. hegemony. The language of the resolution is crafted in a confrontational and at times almost condescending manner -- in a way that leaves little, if any, room for compromise.

The Meaning

The timing is close to perfect. The world is still stunned by the speed at which the United States conquered Iraq, and the anti-war coalition is quite spectacularly disorganized. Should the United States delay too long, there is a chance that the opposition could coalesce again into a coherent political force.

It is simply too early at this point to project how individual powers will react to the resolution. Many states -- including France, Germany and Russia -- this week have sounded notes of compromise on many aspects of recent U.S. policy, particularly in regard to the lifting of sanctions against Iraq. The new resolution, however, would take the U.S. position in Iraq light-years beyond what the anti-war states were willing to consider -- and even the United Kingdom, Washington's staunchest ally, cannot be happy with its wording.

That was precisely the intent.

The United States is generating a moment of crisis for the countries that opposed its Iraq policy to this point. The war in Iraq was not just about fighting al Qaeda or intimidating the Arab world into acquiescence; it was also about showing that the United States could not and would not be constrained by the international community or international law.

When viewed in this light, the new resolution is not merely the next logical step in U.S. efforts to secure Iraq, but also a blunt ultimatum to those who have opposed Washington over the past several months.

The rest of the world has seen clearly that the United States can and will use its full military strength to achieve its foreign policy goals. Washington is now presenting them with a choice : they can capitulate to American power and play Washington's game by Washington's rules, or they can continue to resist and freeze relations into a cycle of hostility.

With the proposed U.N. resolution, the Bush administration in essence is saying that it can accept that the stance of the anti-war coalition to this point was based on principle -- or greed. However, if the positions of anti-war states do not change, then their past opposition will be viewed as policy -- not as a fluke -- and will not go unpunished. Washington expects to be respected as global hegemon.

The resolution will not be popular. But Stratfor does not expect debate to be vociferous. The governments of each state on the Security Council -- once they stop fuming -- will have some serious thinking to do about their relationship with the United States. Stratfor already has detected a sort of frantic rush in national capitals as world leaders come to grips with this new American move.

In Washington's view, it is time for all of them to reassess their policies and find a means of fitting into the U.S. paradigm -- or to set their opposition to the United States in stone and suffer the consequences.
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  #1220  
Old May 12th, 2003, 04:20 PM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
I am interested by comments of US citizen about it.
Well, to start with the piece is written in a rather sensationalist style. It is clearly meant to arouse an emotional response more than it is meant to inform or even to rationally persuade.

However, the article does address a matter that should be seriously considered: how much power does the U.S. have?

That is a little scary. There is only one superpower left and it is the U.S. Would even a united Europe be able to thwart the wishes of the U.S.? Does the divided and contentious Europe we find now have a chance?

Next question, what does one do about this. Should a coalition of nations be formed solely to oppose the U.S.? Should nations oppose the U.S. in any of its endeavors simply because it is too strong? Does every action the U.S. takes seek only to add to its power?

The question is not, however, how much power should the U.S. have. You cannot simply take power away. The U.S. has this power because of its nature: because of its industry, because of its economy, because it has the third largest population in the world and because of what it is doing with that population. You could not take this power away without changing the nature of the U.S.; this may be possible, but it's not a realistic goal.

The question is how much authority should the U.S. have. Unfortunately there is no simple substitute for the power the U.S. uses to back the authority it has taken for itself. If another body were to be given authority over the U.S. that authority must also be backed by power.

The U.N. has some authority but it did not change Iraq, did not prevent genocide in Africa or Europe, did not slow nuclear programs in Pakistan or North Korea. (The one in India did come to a stop, and only resurfaced when Pakistan started getting close.) Is anything wrong with this? Perhaps not. Perhaps we should look at what the U.N. has done. Or perhaps the U.N. lacks power because it only derives its authority from the power and authority of its consistently bickering constituents.

Should the U.S. be solving the world problems? I doubt it. They aren't pursuing this goal, either. Really the U.S. only messes with the world to their own ends: for their security, for the stability of their interests, for their profit. Is that right? Should you expect anything different?

Could you or even your country do anything about it? Probably not, not even with all of your friends.
Quote:
Originally posted by tesco samoa:
It is one thing to say you disagree with the Prez. but it is quite another to state that he should be capped, and it should be delt with right there and then in a class room.
Quite a different thing: this is one thing you cannot say with impunity. I'm not sure this was the best way to teach this little civics lesson, but it seems like a lot of people aren't aware that Freedom of Speech does not extend to Conspiracy to Commit [whatever].

If you are speaking about committing a crime, you can be charged with Conspiracy to Commit that crime, this covers talk of killing the president and means that talking about this is, eventually, going to get the attention of the Secret Service.

That, it seems to me, is the way it ought to be.
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