[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[tesco samoa]

http://www.talion.com/georgebush.html
http://www.awolbush.com/
link about his great military career.

[dogscoff]

Becasue now that we have you addicted to American culture you can't help yourself.

Well quite. It has now reached the point in the UK (and I'm sure in plenty of other countries as well) where the majority of people can't tell where US culture begins and ours ends.

And yes, we did buy into it. No-one forced us, although I'd disagree with the statement that no propaganda was used. IMHO the whole cold war was little more than a propaganda war, with the US exporting images of big cars, drive-thru movies, shiny white teeth and apparent wealth throughout the 50s and early 60s. The so-called American Dream.

But anyway, now that we have bought into (or in the case of younger generations- inherited) the American Dream, a lot of us want out. We spent thousands of years developping our own cultures and so we kind of resent having them sanitised, branded, assimilated into US culture and then sold back to us in a happy meal.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
. Hopefully more and more people will do the same and eventually things will change.

I doubt it will change peacefully. Behind consumism are all those mega corporations, and they have a vested interest in consumism. They are not gonna let it go without a fight, they have the money and power to control most of our politicians, so.....

[geoschmo]

Aloofi, what you are describing ceases to become consumerism and instead becomes coersion. That's a big step to take, even for an evil capitalist corporation.

D, what I still don't understand is your resentment of Americans for suplying you with what you want to buy. It's not propaganda, it's called advertising. And you and your countrymen are free to turn it off any time you wish.

I guess I understand though. When you look at your own country and see problems it's much easier and feels better if you can put the blame for it on someone else. Nobody likes being held responsible for our own flaws. Of course maybe that's all part of the American culture you have been infected with. Cause I certainly see that trait among many people on this side of the pond as well.

Geoschmo

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

D, what I still don't understand is your resentment of Americans for suplying you with what you want to buy. It's not propaganda, it's called advertising. And you and your countrymen are free to turn it off any time you wish.

I don't think it's too hard to understand.
A drug addict can be upset at the dealers selling the drugs yet still buying them...

Originally posted by Aloofi:
I doubt it will change peacefully. Behind consumism are all those mega corporations, and they have a vested interest in consumism. They are not gonna let it go without a fight, they have the money and power to control most of our politicians, so.....

Cooperations are run by people, most of them ordinary people with families and kids.
Many of them feel that we are consuming to much themselfs. There are coperation owners that are decent people..

(Hard to see me writing these things as I used to be a member in the Swedish communist party's youth club, now the "Left Party", whom I still vote on though.)
(And no let's not start a commie bashing thread I know all about the atrocities commited by them and the downfalls of the theory!)

[ May 15, 2003, 13:32: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
I don't think it's too hard to understand.
A drug addict can be upset at the dealers selling the drugs yet still buying them...

Well, that's kind of offensive equating legal products and services with the drug trade. But it's a prefect example of my point. Many people and shortsighted politicians in my country get up in arms about the drug trade. They want to blame the countries supplying the drugs like Columbia when in fact the problem is our demand for the drugs in the first place. We criticize those countries for being unable to stop the supply, when it is our money funding the cartels and corrupting and coercing the legal system in those countries to the point where the bad guys basically run the show down there. Although from what I hear it's getting some better in recent years, but a lot of innocent Columbians died in the process.

Look in a mirror. The consumer is king folks. You want it, if Americans didn't supply it, someone else would.

Geoschmo

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Well, that's kind of offensive equating legal products and services with the drug trade.

Offensive is another of my middle names...

[Cyrien]

Here is the problem with some of what has been said.

The minimalist lifestyle is good. But what happens when lots of people adopt it? A drop in demand, resulting in a drop in supply. If no one buys it the companies stop producing it. If they aren't producing it they fire the people making it so they don't lose money while demand is low. So what happens to the fired people?

Currently the consumerism is so strongly embedded in most modernized and even developing countries to an extent that if significant numbers of people went against it it would lead to almost total economic collapse. Why? Because that is the system we have and all of our national services and organizations are based on those fundamental ideas. Before you can replace it you have to have an alternative. Cottage industries maybe? As much as I think it sounds good I don't think it is going to happen.

[tbontob]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ruatha:
Cooperations are run by people, most of them ordinary people with families and kids.
Many of them feel that we are consuming to much themselfs. There are coperation owners that are decent people..

(Hard to see me writing these things as I used to be a member in the Swedish communist party's youth club, now the "Left Party", whom I still vote on though.)
(And no let's not start a commie bashing thread I know all about the atrocities commited by them and the downfalls of the theory!)[/QB]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A communist!

We have a communist in our midst!

Batten down the hatches! Get the women and children into shelters! Go onto stage 3 alert!

Yes, there is a huge difference between theoretical communism and "Communism", an experiment gone bad.

Theoretical commmunism emphasizes the importance of the working man

In contrast, Communism de-emphasized the importance of the proletariat. An example is of the untold millions who died of mass starvation in the 30's when Stalin converted the farms into collectives.

Complain and you won a free trip to a government sponsored resort whereby you had the opportunity to experience a new lifestyle.

In a society where everyone was supposed to be equal, gross inequalities flourished.

The elite were insulated from the worst abuses of power. While there were purges, they did not reach the magnitude of the untold millions who died helplessly at the hands of the regime.

Government officials had summer resorts in addition to large homes, the common man felt himself blessed to share a 3 room apartment with only one other family.

Government officials had the right to shop in government stores which had a wide selection of products. The common man had the right to wait in line for hours in anticipation of buying a product which may not be available when he reached the head of the line. He could then look forward to waiting in another line for another product he needed in order to survive.

Just a few examples of the good life in Russia.

Like it or not, we are all basically the same. We may have been blessed with a greater intelligence, more money, more goods, but IMO none of those makes a person a better person than another.

Ruatha, I totally agree with you that people in corporations are ordinary people who have family and kids. To tar and feather everyone who belongs in a certain class because of the actions of a few is not right.

Hate is extremely corrosive. It has severe consequences to both the person expressing it and the target.

Even criminals deserve respect as people. What they have done is not to be condoned or accepted. And they need to pay the price. But they are still people.

People who hate, often learn this lesson the hard way when a relative is incarcerated.

I think it was Nietzche who said that the health of a nation can be inferred from how it treats its criminals.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Cooperations are run by people, most of them ordinary people with families and kids.
Many of them feel that we are consuming to much themselfs. There are coperation owners that are decent people..

Descent people?
Like who?
Dick Cheney?

About the anti-Americanism, I wouldn't worry about that, there is absolutely nothing that the US can do to be loved, because all ruling empires have been hated through history. You can be sure that those people blindly anti-american would be the same wether the US did something wrong or not.
Of course, there are other people out there, like me , that don't hate the US, but "strongly" dislike the current administration. So all anti-americanism is not anti-Bush, and all anti-Bush is not anti-americanism.

.