[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Askan Nightbringer]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4616550,00.html

hmmm.... The N.A. Media does not seem to be picking this story up ...

I saw a snippet about it on a late night tv news program. Also Martin Bright was interviewed by a Sydey radio station.
Its just another argument for the reasons of moving the UN out of New York and into somewhere more neutral and insignificant, one of the "non-aligned" block countries.

Originally posted by Ack:
The author did state that the biggest issue of concern is how this story is pissing off traditional US allies. He stated that this is a sign of how incredibly poor US-International relations are when such a minor thing incites naked outrage in Australia (for example).

It only takes George W's head now to incite naked outrage in Australia. He's alienated a big majority of the population here.

Askan

[Amonra]

I personally knew that War with Iraq was on the very near horizon after 9-11. With the continual failure of the US to track down Osama Bin Laden and display him like a war trophy, War with Iraq and the goal of displaying Saddam Hussien would be become the next best option. This isn’t just a cynical view, but a reality of the American psyche. The great need to go looking for blame everywhere other than in oneself. You ask the average American why 9-11 happened and you’ll get the boiler plate response: “It’s because they hate our freedom and wealth, and because they are crazies and fanatics.” It’s never because,…oh “our government is doing stuff around the world to piss people off and some are going to react with overzealous fervor”

Let’s look at the entire picture of what got us here to this crossroads of war and peace. American backed Saddam’s rise to power to counter the situation arising in Iran. The fundamentalists were gaining too much steam and America, along with all the gulf states and many European allies wanted to prevent a rising tide of Islam governments in region with the world most important resource. They also didn’t want the movement to unite against Israel and force a confrontation which would require direct American and European support. So, Saddam came to power, and we supported his firming of his power to eventually confront the Iranian Revolution. Iraq, until the gulf war, was the most liberal and westernized middle-eastern state, with a very solid middle class.

So, the Iran-Iraq war didn’t go so hot, and they eventually saw the futility of a war over a worthless swath of land, and then brokered a peace deal. Well, that’s all good and well, but Iraq had fought a very costly war and had nothing to show for it and a huge debt load. These same gulf countries had all cheered Iraq’s move against Iran, but now looked the other way when the credit man came a knocking! Little Kuwait had been a HUGE countributor to Iraq, but had also loan some money, and Saddam didn’t wanna pay, plus…and this is where it gets good…Georgie Bush, part one, was really chummy with the Monarchy. Kuwait keeps doing it’s own thing outta OPEC’s limits to hook-up Georgie in providing Ma and Pa Clayton with cheap gas.

So, Saddam loses his mind and attacks Kuwait, We panic and rally the world to kick him out. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Saddam is crazy in the least bit, he simply over-estimated his military’s capabilities to resist us and We under-estimated our capabilities, so he decided to stay and fight, and we obliged to kick his @$$. We also did him a very nice favor by killing off the dead-weight of the bulky army from the Iran-iraq war, which he could just send home. We eliminated tons of worthless and antiqued war pieces, but somehow, the Republican Guards division when nearly unscathed in the bombing. There are tons of reports about the now degraded capabilities of the Iraqi military machine, eventhough he’s been selling billions of oil illegally and spending that money somewhere?!?!?

Now the other little piece of the puzzle is AmeriKKKA’s most wanted in the form of Osama. Now this guy is a piece of worth, as we help created this wonderful tool to keep the Soviets off their guard in the Stan’s…you know Afhganistan, Pakistan, Ubeikistan…Jollystan, Mollystan,…Pollystan. Then after the war was over in Afghanistan, we discarded them provided an ample breeding ground and source by occupying the Persian Gulf…to protect those poor Arabs from Evil Saddam. Bombing Iraq every week and watching our penis get larger and full ourselves. BANG! 9-11, and the perennial $hit hit$ the fan again when the second piece of the puzzle smokes us and our penis starts to droop! Secretly, we know the world is laughing at us, the mighty us..eerrrrr US. So we go over and kick the living crap outta some Afghans, but ooohhh my Osama and Mullah Omar break camp and most of theirs boys run undercover to plot the next attack. Well, the American public is a fickle lot and with zero progress in getting Al Queda stomped…we turn to Iraq. Number 2 please, number 2 is next in line please.

BUT we are now in a massive oooh ****! The rest of the world is sick of our ****, and are now simply pimping us to get their cooperation. Turkey flat out refused unless the money was right…even after the massive hoopla with the French and Germans. Now that’s a laugh. I won’t even go into the laughable comments about how the French owes us big time from WWII…hmmm I guess we figured that we had already paid them for basically footing the bill for our War of Independence (for some anyway!!!) and for little things like the symbol of freedom worldwide in the little old harbor in NYC called….THE STATUE OF LIBERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could go on and on about how silly the case is against Iraq, and support how it’s all about Oil, but I’ve got better things to do. Most American’s are simply too ignorant for me to argue intelligently about world issues, and they are all so proud of their ignorance. Well, go into Iraq without the UN’s permission (an illegal act) and kick out Saddam (probably won’t get him) and we’ll set up a puppet government to let us get a great oil deal and to also provide even more worldwide support for Al Qeada from borderline Moslems. The government will be paper thin of course and we’ll have to remain there for about 45 years, as we are in South Korea.

I love America, but I’m not too blind to see the truth…this war is nothing more than a thin veil for an Oil grab for a Oil-hungry administration. It’s got little to do with human rights or WMD (what a catchy phrase.) All these simpletons trying to compare the current situation to Germany in 1930 are spewing form fitting rhetoric. They here it on some ignorance news show like Bill O’reilly and do a little research to get do a few facts from the internet, and then post it to display there great knowledge of “cut-n-paste.” America is sliding down that slippery slope of overbearing imperialist. Just remember all those poor Africans the Europeans were saving when they enslaved them, or the similar pattern displayed by Rome in her declining years when she would launch massive military campaigns to spread the glory of the Roman Empire…hence Gladiator the movie. This was is going to come back to haunt in our lifetimes…just wait and see.


I'm cool as a fan...with my gat in hand!

[JLS]

This isn’t just a cynical view

Yea, ok...

What you just did, is also another that makes America Great…. You stated your opinion with out FEAR of physical retribution or death.

Actually, I wonder more how some of the middle east leaders; worries and prepare in regards to the natural sale and depletion there oil reserves.

We eliminated tons of worthless and antiqued war pieces, but somehow, the Republican Guards division when nearly unscathed in the bombing. There are tons of reports about the now degraded capabilities of the Iraqi military machine

Is this supposed to strike fear in the American minds? I think not...
Actually this is staring to sound like Anti American Propaganda. I have been seeing more and more (allmost Exact words) of this all over the net, in the Last few days?!?!?!

By the way, off topic, how do you like SE4
Edit:
Amonra, from NY

[ March 07, 2003, 13:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Does any one have a source to Quote Kuwaiti oil sales and who the purchasers where in the Last 10 years?
EDIT: Kuwaiti exports to US (updated 2000): only 14% of Kuwaiti total exports. This includes Kuwaiti oil, refining and fertilizer products.

I know we liberated that Country too, and we did not set up Jeb Bush as its Leader….

I believe, but not actually being there, that the Kuwaiti people are Jubilant towards us and view us as a faithful ally and not there new ruling despot? I may be wrong tough, not actually being there to see for my self.

This is a complicated issue for sure, I do not believe we are after (your/There) oil; but I do believe the American citizens will not tolerate the pillaging of a another nations resource of any kind by a victor or not… Actually late world history has proven that Americans want to give and rebuild after a war, (even if it is not clear wether we won or was even in that past event or not. We helped the best we could).

I do know one thing, terrorism has been around for centuries, one of the best ways is to stop it, in my mind, is to stop the funding and transfer of arms. Appeasement or quick fixes has not worked in our history, Europe, Africa, South America, Israel, have had terrorism and death for most of Last century….

9-11 has brought this to home, and yes I want my country to do something about it, quick, decisive and as merciful as possible. I do agree with appeasement as anyone would with a child… Some national leaders make threats at me and my family; threats that have substance, threats that would destroy my family as with the families in 9-11, I prey my Country protects us from these threats; as I would, with a Brigand in my home with a knife to my Daughters throat.

[ March 07, 2003, 19:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Amonra]

By the way, off topic, how do you like SE4

I like SEIV very much...I've played for nearly a year now, and I think it's the best 4X game I've ever played.

As to the OT-on topic topic I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, with a prior military background, who has acutally been stationed in the Persian Gulf...acutally set foot down there and not just read about it.

[Askan Nightbringer]

Originally posted by JLS:
Actually this is staring to sound like Anti American Propaganda. I have been seeing more and more (allmost Exact words) of this all over the net, in the Last few days?!?!?!

What exactly does Anti-American mean? Its an all too often heard phrase to dismiss the arguements of the anti-current US administration camp.

I think George W is a dick.
Does that make me anti-american?

I hate that my government supports the US without question.
Does that make me anti-american?

I hate the the so called opposition parties support the US without question.
Does that make me anti-american?

I think the coming Iraq war is based on a load of toss.
Does that make me anti-american?

I don't like the US system of extreme Capitalism for the poor coupled with Corporate Socialism.
Does that make me anti-american?

How do I become not anti-american? Do I have to kiss the US flag before I go to bed? Do I have to pay to watch America take a dump? Do I have to grovel before the absolute greatness of the Stars and Stripes? What the hell does Anti-American mean?

I do know one thing, terrorism has been around for centuries, one of the best ways is to stop it, in my mind, is to stop the funding and transfer of arms. Appeasement or quick fixes has not worked in our history, Europe, Africa, South America, Israel, have had terrorism and death for most of Last century….

Well another way of stopping terrorism is to stop PARTICIPATING in it. Don't train the next generation of terrorists just because they happen to be anti islamic fundamentalists at the time.

Askan
Anti-American because he thinks that Sex in the City is not the defintive authority on life in the 2000s.

[Wardad]

OT a litte.. Just some email I recieved about the French situation.

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein?
Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret.
He is French, people."
--Conan O'Brien

"I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq.
After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France!"
---Jay Leno

"The Last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag."
--David Letterman

"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee."
--- Regis Philbin

While speaking to the Hoover Institution today, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was asked this question:
"Could you tell us why to date at least the Administration doesn't favor direct talks with the North Korean government?
After all, we're talking with the French."
The Secretary smiled and replied:
"I'm not going there!"

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."
--- General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
--Norman Schwartzkopf

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
---Jacques Chirac, President of France
"As far as France is concerned, you're right."
---Rush Limbaugh,

An old saying:
Raise your right hand if you like the French....
Raise both hands if you are French.

Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.

"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it."
---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona

"France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country.
France has usually been governed by prostitutes."
---Mark Twain

"I just love the French. They taste like chicken!"
---- Hannibal Lecter

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it."
---- Marge Simpson

-------------------------
Just kidding

[JLS]

Don’t get me wrong Australia and this is not a good reason for you to join a US or any coalition. We can go this Iraq thing alone, if necessary.

If you were to poll the majority of Australians back in 1942 if they wanted the Americans to be at war as there ally even though we may have the US system Attributes that you say, what would do you think the vast majority of Australians would vote?

What if President Roosevelt and the American People did not react with war after we were attacked by Japan our Carrier Group would have never been in the Coral sea where Hundreds of American lives were lost preventing the Japanese Capture of Port Moresby.
There by helping to secure the safety of Australian Families from Japanese planes that would of been in range on your home land, if they succeeded…

~~~
With allot of us Americans it may just come down to just this, safety for our families.
~~~

Yes, Askan Nightbringer, sadly I have seen a lot of Anti-American Propaganda on the Net Recently .

EDIT:
Actually by Omitting the word “ Propaganda ” from the sentence, Askan Nightbringer you were able to imply I called Amonra anti-American; when in fact, I did not.

Hence: half truths, disinformation (This is Propaganda) and thank you for the illustration

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“God of kings – King of gods"

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Thesaurus (ENGLISH)

propaganda (n)
misinformation , party line, disinformation , half truths , cant, indoctrination, load of toss

publicity, advertising, marketing, literature, information, hoopla, puffery, hype, buildup, Bumf

[ March 07, 2003, 18:59: Message edited by: JLS ]

[tesco samoa]

MR. JLS.

Back in 1942 Australians were at war. Sept 1939 ! Please do not compare the American gov'ts current polices with Iraq with WW2. They are not the same.

Our Friend in Australia is questioning these policies that the current American Gov't is persuing.

Do you agree 100 % with these policies.

Say 10% of the Population of Iraq is 'Evil-doers' and the rest is not.

Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it.

Do you think that the lofty goals that the American Gov't has stated for Iraq will be met or do you think it will be just like Vietnam.

On the subject of Oil sales... Control of those fields controls Europe and Central Asia. That is important.

1990 was the right thing to do. They should have finished the job then. M. Thatcher stated it was the worst mistake of her political career not ending that war and letting the Iraq army slaughter all opposition to the Iraq Gov't

You keep tossing 9-11 in there. None of the terrorists were from Iraq. None of the A-Q they have captured or are after are from Iraq. There is no proof that Iraq was involved with those actions. Why isn't your country questioning the relationship between the current crop of people in charge and the A-Q.

A quote from you

Some national leaders make threats at me and my family; threats that have substance, threats that would destroy my family as with the families in 9-11, I prey my Country protects us from these threats; as I would, with a Brigand in my home with a knife to my Daughters throat.

Is not your Govn't and Britains Govn't doing the same thing?

I believe it is to be American to question.

My intent here is not to slander you. Your opinions are valid, as is Askan's.

[Fyron]

Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it.

Casualties of legally declared war are not murder victims in any sense.