what about the future?

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I don't think it would be that hard to get a large publisher for one.

"Publishers run a mile from anything with turn-based mechanics - it is regarded as too niche." - Julian Gollop Creator of X-Com. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...p#comment61000

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

This is what a tutorial game would be for. No, not something in the manual on paper, a scenario that walked you through playing the first 20 turns or so with pop-ups and scripted events.

Dom3 is a bit to complex to explain just in the tutorial. (Which Dom3 has actually).

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Master of Magic was also tremendously successful. Master of Orion was tremendously successful (1+2, 3 was an abomination and failed not because it was turn based, but because it was a poorly composed set of 'features'). Panzer General was hugely successful, and that franchise is still alive and well (and still turn-based!). Combat Mission was quite successful and spawned two sequels (all 3 within the last decade). Saying TBS is dead seems to show a lack of knowledge.

Master of Magic - 1994
MOO - 1993, 2 - 1996
Both not the best examples. I'm talking about the current market here.
Combat mission I never heard of before. So I don't know how popular it is. And isn't doing that good (according to 5 minutes of wiki searching: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_...orce#Reception).
Yeah, panzer general is doing good. (The fact that you yourself mention that the whole series is still turn based, as if it is an accomplishment is a clear sign.)

When I said other AAA games, I meant other current AAA games. There aren't that many left. Sure there used to be big AAA games, but the gaming world has moved on. TBS has become a nice in which only a small amount of big titles can survive. (Currently only CIV). And most of them aren't innovative anymore. HOMM? Just play HOMM3, it is the best one of the series.

The main point remains that the market has little room for a lot of big AAA TBS games. Only a few of the very large amount that used to be created remain.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

There are women who play dom3. At least 3 of them.

*Laughs* ...

But that is the whole definition of a niche game. Only a select group of people play it. It has little appeal to women, young 14 year olds etc. So it is a niche game! Of you want it to get out of the niche, you must convince other types of people to play. This was the main point of the discussion. Is Dom3/TBS niche or not? If only a select group of males plays it, it is a niche game.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Seriously, do you know how many people play Axis and Allies? A lot. The A+A *tournament* at GenCon gets a whole room, and a pretty large one at that, all of which are people who enjoy boardgaming with strategic depth - and that's just one boardgame, and the people who play it seriously enough to compete in a tournament *and* travel to GenCon to do so. Sure, not all of them are necessarily interested in fantasy, but you don't need all of them to be interested. Or we could talk about the success of Battlelore, various LotR strategic boardgames, etc...

Yeah, but do you know what stratigic depth boardgame players are? A niche group. Sure there is a lot of action at GenCon. But that is like saying that the Amish aren't a small religion because the Amish churches are allways full.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Warhammer is popular enough that GW runs stores in major cities dedicated solely to Warhammer.

Mostly only in the UK. Stores in other European countries constantly close. Warhammer is also getting more and more expensive. They tend to increase prices fairly often. (I personally think because they need more and more money to keep the business afloat). And warhammer, and most miniature painting and combat games do have a niche appeal. It is also the only business to be able to do this. Which makes for a bad comparison. Never compare the best game or business with the normal businesses. That makes a crooked comparison. All the other games businesses who tried to create dedicated stores have failed.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Clearly you've never been to a gaming convention.

Ad hominem, and not relevant.

A gaming convention is a gathering place of very hardcore gamers. Just like Moss Eisley is a hive of scum and villany. GenCon is a hive of hardcore and geeky gamers. Both niche.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Not sure about adventure games - you'd have to define the genre =p. Because I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to in this day and age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_games

You know, infocom, SCUMM etc stuff. No recent big hits there. Sure some resurrections of old games. (Yeahh... a Monkey Island remake... yawn...)

But we are getting a bit offtopic. I think the main problem is that my definition of niche is a bit broader than yours.

But can Dom3 get more players, sure, a lot can be fixed. (Just compare it to Dwarf Fortress, a game which could be vastly improved by upgrading the UI. (See: Goblin Camp) getting a lot more players (and donations)).

But could it ever appeal to a large group of players like a game like Diablo or Halo does. I don't think so. To niche appeal.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

your unique and greatly efficient ad campaigns

I see what you did there.

I'm actually a bit interested, Dom3 seems to be on sale fairly recent right? But only for a small amount (like 10%). Does this bring in more sales?

I keep forgetting Dom3 has music. I was bothered so much by it that I turned it off. I do like Dominions III though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKa2MzIgRqI

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

I see what you did there.

Actually he showed that he is still missing some major points. Advertising/shelfware vs publicity/distribution. Everything has its pros and cons but the advertising route is not great for indies and niche.

I'm actually a bit interested, Dom3 seems to be on sale fairly recent right? But only for a small amount (like 10%). Does this bring in more sales?

They have said in the past that it didnt. Or at least not nearly like people think it might.
They also offer other price breaks which can be used in connection with sales. Such as for American military (which I use often) or for students worldwide. Both of those allow another 10% break.

I keep forgetting Dom3 has music. I was bothered so much by it that I turned it off.

Any music can get old. Ive had Dom3 since mid-2004 and play it often. Nothing could survive that!

Except (as I often mention in beta and game programming groups) new games should take a look at Fractal Music. Very little programming overhead and each nation, player, style, and time into each game could have its own musical flavor. Some musician/programmer should get good at that and start joining beta groups!

[J Henry Waugh]

I would love to see Dom 3 engine on a "Evolution of Civilizations" model/theme (inspired from Carroll Quigley, google it, you can find PDF of the book available).

And instead of magic / religion / military, a 6 tiered model on

Military - armies, navies,
Political
Economic - depending on terrain, broken into agriculture, mining, commerce and as evolved, fabricated production
Social
Religious
Intellectual - science

Each of the 6 axis influencing the civ, i.e., religion affecting population, social affecting "happiness"/culture/"dominion" spread, military the act of "manual" conquest, economic the output of food and resources, intellectual for technology breakthroughs, etc...

Sounds like a lot Civilization series, but I like the Dom 3 "province" model much better.

[Squirrelloid]

Apparently all games are niche games by Soyweiser's metric. Hell, even WoW is a niche game. Damn, if niches are that big, what's the point of calling things niche games.

Soyweiser, i tip my hat to you, you managed to take all meaning out of the word niche.


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Regarding TBS being niche - yes, X-Com had a hard time of it because squad-level TBS is pretty much dead (no matter how much I'd love to see a good squad-level TBS game personally). Grand Strategy and 4X games, on the other hand, are still the domain of TBS, because its too hard for a person to play such a game run in 'real time' *and* have the game go anywhere. (ie, massive time compression is necessary for there to be any development, and the scope is so large that it just explodes in your face if its on a timer). Basically, once you get to operational level and above, all military games need to be turn based to be playable by people.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding here. FfH2 is a hugely successful mod in CivIV. It exists because there is no high-quality fantasy civ-like game, and the following for it demonstrates the existence of a large market for a 4X fantasy game. Now someone just needs to release one that people actually know about and is polished, neither of which really describes Dom3. (Heck, I think more people are aware of DF than Dom3...)

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Re: Combat Mission
Yes, critical reviews weren't that great. But it spawned 2 sequels over the course of 4 years. Since the thing companies are really concerned with is sales, that suggests that there is definitely a market out there. That people obviously bought something that the critics didn't like much means either (1) critics are biased against TBS games to the point they can't get a fair review (so critical reception is a worthless metric) or (2) people who want a TBS game are so starved for games that they're willing to buy something even with bad reviews.

I haven't found actual sales figures yet. But 2 sequels does say something.

[Tim Brooks]

Zeldor:

I'd like to apologise on behalf of our arrogant community.

Oh, I don't feel the community is arrogant. Did I say that?

No one here has idea about conducting anything business-related nor has any experience in production, management or distribution of any kind.

I think you are mistaken. There are several knowledgable people here who seem to have a great understanding of the niche gaming industry. The sad thing is that there are those here that have no idea what they are talking about, spouting off as if they do, but others may not know that.

You and Shrapnel sound like a very successful company.

Thanks!

your unique and greatly efficient ad campaigns

Glad you like them. They sure have worked for us.

[Tim Brooks]

I'm curious as to the demographics of the TBS market and whether it's an aging audience that was exposed to turn based games when they started playing computer games and maintained an interest in them over time. Do the vast majority of young players today (if they have an interest in strategy games at all) prefer the fast pace of RTS games (something that didn't exist when many older players began with strategy games)?

Yes, the TBS market reached its peak in the mid-1990s. Since then it has been shrinking as those who grew up with no other strategy gaming form are dying off. Don't get me wrong, there are new converts, but not at a rate that replaces the aging market.

And of course, there are always exceptions, though few and far between. A game comes along every once in a while, that the non-TBS market falls in love with. But because you buy one TBS game in 10 years doesn't make you a TBS gamer. And it doesn't change the TBS market into mainstream gaming.

I also wonder about the overlap between players interested in military simulations and 4X games. The Squad Leader players I've known wouldn't have had any interest in fantasy games...

I think that more and more, TBS gamers are willing to cross into other genres, just because there are so few good TBS games. But you are also right, there are those that will only play one genre.

[Zeldor]

I am really curious about HoMM5 income and HoMM6 business plan. They ruined great series and I wonder if it's financially viable for them. Pretty much 90% of core players left, I wonder if they managed to attract new people by stripping most of fun and replacing nations with generic fantasy [and adding lots of almost-nude chicks].

[Tim Brooks]

I'm actually a bit interested, Dom3 seems to be on sale fairly recent right? But only for a small amount (like 10%). Does this bring in more sales?

It is really interesting how sales in a niche market seem to work for us. Our best results are with sales of 10-15%. This brings in enough unit sales to make up for the lost revenue from the discount. Not enough to make more money (more units, same income). What doesn't work is large sales say 20% or more. You sell more units, but not enough to make up for the lost revenue from the discount (more units, less income).

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Hell, even WoW is a niche game.

In pure player numbers it is. Farmville wins. 80 mil vs 10 mil (And WoW is actually one of the biggest non-facebook games out there, the whole growth of silly facebook games has taken a lot of developers by surprise. Kind of a repeat of the gigantic growth of the casual games market a few years back). . Stupid simple games are bigger than more complex games.

But just to play with the MMORPGers a bit more. In the MMORPGers world most are actually niche games, at least compared to WoW. Eve online? 300k players. Small amount compared to the 10 Mil of WoW. So Eve Online is a niche in the MMORPG world. It targets a specific group of players who want SF space combat, and large scale corporate shenanigans. And still, shrapnel/IW would be very happy if Dom3 sold 300k copies. I think even half that would be great. . So yeah, niches can look very big, but it is still a small part of a larger market.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Damn, if niches are that big, what's the point of calling things niche games.

If the niche is that big, why do board game stores have such a hard time staying profitable? Why do almost all the large RPG/boardgame publishers go bankrupt or get taken over by a the giants? Why is it so hard for normal boardgames to stay in production?

Sure you can get The Settlers of Catan everywhere. But that is simple low strategy board game. Now try to buy Shogun/Samurai Swords somewhere. Big strategy board games get out of print often. Why? Because eventually the market is saturated. The avid war/boardgamers all have a copy. And the group of these is rather small so it doesn't really pay off to keep copies laying around for the small amount of sales you get. While Settlers still sells regular. Why? Because difficult board games are a niche, and settlers has a broad appeal.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Now someone just needs to release one that people actually know about and is polished, neither of which really describes Dom3.

Something like Age of Wonders Shadow magic perhaps? or Disciples III? Or HOMM? The games do excist, but somehow they are never as complex and interesting as Dom3.

Sure, the fantasy mod is popular. But if released as a stand alone game would it also sell? (Like the Jason Engle art btw)

But why are we still arguing if TBS games are niche or not? In the last 15 years TBS games have always been outsold by RTS and FPS games.

The focus should be on how do we get Dom3 to all the TBS players who currently don't own it. (Which is actually out of the question as development on Dom3 has halted, and IW is working on a non-Dom project. (If my information is correct)). Not, how do we increase the amount of players in the TBS games niche. (Which would be nice, but is difficult to do. I think the handheld TBS games have helped a lot, how is the one called with the little red and blue(?) tanks and soldiers?).