[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[teal]

Thanks for your post Aloofi. Its very interesting to hear an Isreali point of view on this issue.

I must disagree with your statement that "if the Palestenians stopped fighting their would be peace". If the Palestenians stopped fighting their would be no Palestein (in that sense there would be peace, but that's not what you meant). The Economist published a map of the Isreali settlements in the occupied territories about a year ago. Its very hard, looking at that map, to reach any other conlusion than that Isreal has adopted the strategy of placing settlements to make it a fait accompli that the occupied territories are Isreali and belong to Isreal. If the Palestenians do nothing then they will loose their homeland to the steady march of time and an expanding Isreal. Madeline Albright has suggested in a speech that both sides know that the Isrealis must give up the settlements and the Palestenians must give up the right of return. Both sides seem to want more people to die before they reach that conclusion. I agree with you that if the Palesteniens adopted non-violent methods ala Ghandi that their case would be a thousand times stronger and they would probably have achieved much of their goals. That seems to me to be the best path for them. I have no idea what Isreal should do as I also agree that giving concessions has not worked in the past. We need genius level diplomats that can find a way for both sides to back down without loss of face (i.e. to back down while simultaneously showing strength). Sadly, diplomacy seems to be a lost art these days...

Teal

[tesco samoa]

Aloofi

what is your connection with israel ??

[Loser]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Aloofi

what is your connection with israel ??

I believe he has said that he served in the IDF. If he has not said directly that he was a resident and citizen it would still be a pretty safe assumption.

[Narrew]

I agree with you Aloofi. It is hard to see a positive resolution. How do you negotiate with someone that thinks dieing for a cause is the fast track to Allah

You were right on about how they view us (weak or strong). I wish the U.S. would have backed the rebels against Saddam in the first gulf war. We let millions of Arabs down and it will take much longer to bring them back around. That is one thing many western pacifists just don't get. What we did against Saddam may not be popular, but I think it will be effective down the road, I mean the surrounding Countries that support terrorism have to think now "are we next", and if they dont want to be next, they better crack down on the 1% of wackos.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Aloofi

what is your connection with israel ??

I was born in Israel, 1979/5739, in a Sephardic family like 40% of Israel, went to school, served in the IDF, married an American-Jewish girl, moved to the US, where I make twice the money than in Israel doing the same job, we go to college at night, we will graduate in 2 years, then back to Eretz Yisrael, we'll probably buy a house in Haifa, where my family lives, but lately I've been thinking of Elat, in the south.
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[Erax]

Allofi, this is a story I've been meaning to tell you for a long time. When my wife was a kid (sometime in the early 70's), her parents went to visit another young couple that lived in the same building and took her along. This other couple had no kids, they were very nice people, everyone knew they were foreigners but no one knew exactly where they were from.

Anyway, at some point my wife repeated something she had heard an adult say (you know how kids are like) about this being a terrible country to live in. The foreign couple was shocked by this and they told her "Don't ever say that. This is a wonderful country. We should know, we're Jews." My wife asked them, "What's a Jew ?" And they told her parents, "This is why we love your country. Where we come from, a child her age would already have been taught to hate Jews."

Too bad she never found out where they were from, but from your post I think we can guess.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by teal:


1- I must disagree with your statement that "if the Palestenians stopped fighting their would be peace". If the Palestenians stopped fighting their would be no Palestein (in that sense there would be peace, but that's not what you meant).

2- The Economist published a map of the Isreali settlements in the occupied territories about a year ago. Its very hard, looking at that map, to reach any other conlusion than that Isreal has adopted the strategy of placing settlements to make it a fait accompli that the occupied territories are Isreali and belong to Isreal.

3- If the Palestenians do nothing then they will loose their homeland to the steady march of time and an expanding Isreal.

4- Madeline Albright has suggested in a speech that both sides know that the Isrealis must give up the settlements and the Palestenians must give up the right of return.

Teal

Well, I don't have the time now to get into an in-deep discussion, but here's what I see.

1- If the Palestinians stop fighting there would be peace, and they would get all that they want, because even under fire there is a very strong peace movement in Israel. If they had chosen Ghandi's path the peaceniks would have the mayority of Israel behind them. Israel is a Democracy, you know, and Democracies have a hard time not doing what their people wants.
Now, where's the Palestinian peace movement? I don't see an equivalent to Gush Shalom on the other side of the green line.

2- The economist? Please.
I bet they didn't mention that in 1948 Jordan occupied the West Bank and built twice as many settlements as Israel have built till this day, and Jordan brought in Arabs from everywhere in the Arab world to settle. Many Palestinians are either Arab foreigners are sons of foreigners, and the UN gave the status of refugees to people that have lived in the area less than 2 years in some cases! I thought a refugee is somebody uprooted from his native land, didn't you?
I'm also sure that they didn't mention the 850 000 Sefaradi Jews expelled from Arabs countries, including Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, who's properties were confiscated. But Israel asimilated them, while the Arabs didn't asimilate the 420 000 Arabs that left Israel by orders of their own leaders. Did they mention the Jews of Gaza?
One other question, why are still "refugee camps" in the territory controled by the Palestinian Authority?

3- Lose their homeland? When the Brittish took 75% of the Palestinian Mandate, ordered by the League of Nations to be the Jewish Home, and created the Kingdom of Jordan, they created the Palestinian homeland. Very smart of them to not call it Kingdom of Palestine, so they can claim the other side of the Jordan river also.

4- Madelaine Allbright is not all bright, or maybe she is, depending of what she really wants.
So, we give a real tangible thing, we give land, and they give a promise? A promise that they can break after they get the land? With the Palestinian record of keeping promises?
You gotta be kidding.

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Oh well, that was my rant. Not that it matters, since there is nothing that can be done.

[tesco samoa]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...965319,00.html

WMD have been found !!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Aloofi...

I could not remember if you were an immigrant to North America like me or you were currently living across the pond and down the straight away.

[Narrew]

HEY!!! thats NOT funny

well it is, until you think about it, I mean how the hell do you forget something like that? scary

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
Allofi, this is a story I've been meaning to tell you for a long time.

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That was a nice story.
Yeah, I complain a lot about Bush and the American corporations and Hollywood, but America is a great country indeed, especialy for the poor. It's not perfect, and it certainly can be better, but its people is definitively not the bad people that the anti-american propaganda paint.
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