[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[JLS]

MR. JLS.

Back in 1942 Australians were at war. Sept 1939 ! Please do not compare the American gov'ts current polices with Iraq with WW2. They are not the same.

~EDIT:
"Back in 1942 Australians were at war. Sept 1939 !"
... And??? (This makes little sence) Please re-read my Post

Our Friend in Australia is questioning these policies that the current American Gov't is persuing.

Do you agree 100 % with these policies.

~No

Say 10% of the Population of Iraq is 'Evil-doers' and the rest is not.

~True

Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it.

~murdered, interesting choice of a word.
Actually I think its Iraqi leaders decision whether he wants war, Full Compliance with UN, or Abdication.

Do you think that the lofty goals that the American Gov't has stated for Iraq will be met or do you think it will be just like Vietnam.

~No, Absolutely not: I do not think it will be like Vietnam.
How is that you can compare the American gov'ts current polices with Iraq with Vietnam war?

On the subject of Oil sales... Control of those fields controls Europe and Central Asia. That is important.

~OK, are you saying America is in Control of those fields?

1990 was the right thing to do. They should have finished the job then. M. Thatcher stated it was the worst mistake of her political career not ending that war and letting the Iraq army slaughter all opposition to the Iraq Gov't

~I disagree with M. Thatcher, it was a good decision then.
Unfortunately Iraq, would not comply with UN doctrines.

You keep tossing 9-11 in there. None of the terrorists were from Iraq. None of the A-Q they have captured or are after are from Iraq. There is no proof that Iraq was involved with those actions. Why isn't your country questioning the relationship between the current crop of people in charge and the A-Q.

~Iraq has ties to A-Q and other extreme Terrorist Groups.

-----
A quote from you

EDIT: "9-11 has brought this to home, and yes I want my country to do something about it, quick, decisive and as merciful as possible. I do agree with appeasement as anyone would with a child…"

Continued

Some national leaders make threats at me and my family; threats that have substance, threats that would destroy my family as with the families in 9-11, I prey my Country protects us from these threats; as I would, with a Brigand in my home with a knife to my Daughters throat.

Is not your Govn't and Britains Govn't doing the same thing?

~No.

I believe it is to be American to question.

~Very true !!!! As well as my beleave And the believe of all free societies.

My intent here is not to slander you. Your opinions are valid, as is Askan's

Yes, I agree
And none considered, thank you

[ March 07, 2003, 22:59: Message edited by: JLS ]

[dogscoff]

Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Casualties of legally declared war are not murder victims in any sense.

I'm sure the casualties of legally declared will be very happy to hear that they weren't murdered, Fyron.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

---

Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it.
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Casualties of legally declared war are not murder victims in any sense.

I'm sure the casualties of legally declared will be very happy to hear that they weren't murdered, Fyron.

---

Yep, they will. The term Murder has some strong connotations that do not apply in circumstances of legally declared wars. I assume that Tesco knows this, and that is why he chose to use the word Murdered instead of Killed, but it still does not apply.

[Thermodyne]

It will not be murder, it will be war. If they fight, then they die by the thousands. If they surrender, they will be well treated, this they already know from past experience. I would suspect that a conscript Iraqi solder is better off as a POW, they have few rights in their Army.

Lets face it guys, if the US decides to finish this, we will do it regardless of what Europe says. And irregardless of what we decide to do, they have lost their Middle Eastern cash cow. No more markets for manufactured goods (and we are not talking about TV’s and fridges) and no more lucrative oil exploration/delivery contracts. And after this all settles down, they can continue to flap their jaws about the embargo violations that they have been profiting from. You can bet that this is the high water mark for them, when Saddam is gone, several countries will have a lot of explaining to do.

Many Posts ago, someone entered the forum with a post containing a revised history of American involvement in the region. Let correct a few things. After the Last big war, the area was in the British area of influence and they adjusted the borders as was their right. Nations/States that supported the Nazi’s were not treated as well as allies were. And Israel was created in an area that fully supported Germany. So the US had very little to do with how the region is laid out today.

America supported Israel and Iran during the 50’s 60’s 70’s, and this was originally to counter Soviet influence and have a presence in the region. In the 70’s, the political situation in Iran caused us to look for new allies in the region. When war broke out between Iraq and Iran, it was in America’s best interest to see Iran get a bloody nose, and it was in the best interest of Israel to see Iraq preoccupied with the Iranians. Se we began to support Iraq. It should be noted that Iraq fought the war with its Soviet supplied weapons with a few high tech French pieces tossed in for good measure, as they controlled it all from their German built facilities. At no time did we have what would be called good relations with Iraq. And we have never been more that a minor arms source for them. The Soviets, French and Germans take care of Iraq’s weapons needs.

IMHO, it is good that America will go it almost alone this time. We will finish it once and for all, and we will not have to worry about the interests of a bunch of allies that actually contribute almost nothing to the war. And when this war is over, we can help pay the bill by closing down our operations across Europe. With all of the talk coming from the UN, I think the French and Germans can take care of Europe. Well at least until they decide to take care of each other, again! Perhaps England and the US will be smart enough to sit that one out.

[ March 08, 2003, 01:43: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by Amonra:

quote:

---

By the way, off topic, how do you like SE4

I like SEIV very much...I've played for nearly a year now, and I think it's the best 4X game I've ever played.

As to the OT-on topic topic I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, with a prior military background, who has acutally been stationed in the Persian Gulf...acutally set foot down there and not just read about it.

---

Amonra,

I want to thank you for getting me excited and acting on my Impulse to post in this thread, it really did feel good saying what I wanted to say…

I also want to thank you for serving in the (US?) military, I realize this can be a thank less duty.

With this said, I hope you all well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“God of kings – King of gods"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



[ March 08, 2003, 03:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

[QBrigid]

Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it.

If the leader of my country quarters a large group of troops in my residential neighborhood, (as Iraq is currently doing) I will not be a victim. If my government hides biological or chemical weapons in my basement so UN inspectors may not find them (as Iraq is suspected of doing) I will not be a victim.

I will dust off my grandfathers rifle and keep it by my bedside to defend against the infidel. I will not be a victim. I will give the old pistol to my 13 year old son to hide in his clothes and kill the invader, I will not be a victim. I will support my husband in resistence and sabbatoge of the invader. I will not be a victim.

My family are all americans we have not had to live with fear of invasion, however I can assure you none of us will ever be 'murder' victims of a declared war against our country. We will fight to defend our home and beliefs.

How could I think any Iraqi family would be any different? They have lived with fear of invasion from many different countries for decades. How could they believe those soldiers are living in residential areas just for a change of scenery?

If there are families unwilling to fight for Iraq, why do they not move to an area where there will not be soldiers? Or protest the quartering of them in residential communities? Because the government does not allow it? Hmmmm "Give me liberty or give me death", Patrick Henry---"Live free or Die", New Hampshire state motot.

There are many willing to die for freedom. I would not be a victim.

[Ruatha]

I would rather not die.

Freedom or death is easy to say.
I don't know what choice I'd make but propably I'd rather tolerate living in a dictatorship than be dead.

I'm fortunate to live in a democratic country and be able to defend that freedom with arms if so be, many in this world aren't that lucky.

In a country that is heavily controlled rioting on your own is sure death.

Just joking about Saddam might get you 10 years of prison.

[Fyron]

I don't know what choice I'd make but propably I'd rather tolerate living in a dictatorship than be dead.

The prevalence of this attitude is one of the biggest problems in the world today. I forget which of the authors of the Federalist Papers said it, but, "A man* that is willing to give up an ounce of his freedom for a measure of security deserves no freedom at all." (most likely not the actual quote, but the point is there ).

* Translate to person in today's overly-politcal correct world- in English, man is often used as a generic term that is independant of gender, but there are people that do not realize this.

[ March 08, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Benjamin Franklin:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Ruatha]

Ruatha: "Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action."