[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Ruatha: "Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action."

Of course words are easy to say. Words are how everything has to be communicated. What is the point of that part? It is like stating "english is a language".

I for one am not willing to give up my freedoms for temporary security.

[ March 08, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[jimbob]

Let me start by saying 1) I'm in a really cranky mood today, so if you ain't wearing flame proof undies, don't read any further and 2) I support the war on Iraq, but feel deeply for the plight of the average person in Iraq who will feel more pain before they feel any relief.

If there are families unwilling to fight for Iraq, why do they not move to an area where there will not be soldiers?

A nice sentiment but please, an ounce of reality for just a second. In Iraq one does not simply pack all their belongings, their family pet and 2.5 children into the SUV and the rented U-haul, drive 25 km (16.3 mi) to a new suburb and unload their crap into a new condo and call it a weekend. The average Joe or Joe-ette in Bagdad has many children, nearly no income and very significant family ties. There are no condos available for rent, there is no rapid/easy transportation to look for a new place, etc etc. I'd be surprised if you are even allowed to move in such a highly regulated society! If you do move, you'd better be damned sure that the neighbourhood you move to is Sunni, if you're Sunni, or Kurdish if you're a Kurd. And when the soldiers come, they're there till they want to leave!

Or protest the quartering of them in residential communities? Because the government does not allow it?

Yah, but remember king George MCCVIII (or who ever it was at the time of the American Revolution) was actually a pretty nice guy compared to Sadam. Oh, I know, nobody in Boston liked him 'cause he forced them to drink substandard tea at marked up prices, but at least the colonist could have an audience with him. Good ol' Ben and the boys went away empty handed, but at least they left with their hands still attached!! Sadam is known as the butcher of Bagdad, he has gassed entire populations, he was the one who sat outside of the Iraqi parlement and called the sitting members out one-by-one for public execution when he overthrew the previous regeme.

Now I don't know about you, but when I've got a wife who can be raped, several teenage daughters, and some boys old enough to be conscripted, I might not be so vocal about my displeasure with the king. Give me liberty or give me death is fine, unless the tyrant would rather murder your family before your eyes and then, just for a twist, let you live to dream of the terror every night for the rest of your life.

Hmmmm "Give me liberty or give me death", Patrick Henry---"Live free or Die", New Hampshire state moto.

Must be nice living in New Hampshire.

[ March 08, 2003, 21:02: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Thermodyne]

At Last, a reliable predictor of the chance of war in Iraq
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078517/

[Ruatha]

Fyron>
What I mean is that if you belive you would have acted diferently than the multitude (billion+) of people living in totalitarian states if you where in their position you are most propably wrong.
Statistically most of the people in these conditions goes with the flow, very few rebel openly, or even in secret.

There needs to be a uniting factor for people to take the risc of plunging themself and their families into certain danger.
Take the Soviet union for example. The Glasnost started the way and when the counter-glasnost coup happened it was the signal for the people to rise. Even then it took time for most people to dare to take action..

What "words are cheap" mean is that it's pretty easy to sit in a secure position i n ademocratic state and complain that people in other situation doessn't risk their lifes instead of living under opression.

I'm not sure what I would do. I hope I would fight against the totalitarian rule but statisticly I would most propably accept the situationa s it is and stay alive.

[ March 09, 2003, 18:43: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[tesco samoa]

QBrigid Pehaps you should go ask that question to the people who are very very lucky to live in highland park Detroit Say the Woodward and Davison area. Or some of the fine mid town locations of Baltimore. Or perhaps even Flint Mich.

They have had to deal with large Groups of troops in their residential neighbourhoods, they have had to deal with a lack of freedom. For them it is not easy to move. Or those areas would not exist. And yes their is a war there it is the so called War on Drugs.

Survival is what keeps a person going. The faint hope that all is not lost. So they go on.

So when Democracy is restored to Iraq do you think that a Shia Muslim will be voted into power ? Or perhaps another Dictator who says Yes when spoken to by the occupation Army ?

I am sorry but I do not think that this is worth the life of one single brave American soldier.

[QBrigid]

Please do not misunderstand, the point I was trying to make, was that should civilians be killed during an announced war, they may not be victims, but civilian combatants. I certainly would protect my home and country.

As for the ability to throw off the oppression of Saddam, it is possible that enough people do not wish another government. When the Poles wanted freedom, many gave their lives and security to achieve it. The students in Tienamen Square knew what they were facing when they protested the government.

Quoted from Tesco Samoa

QBrigid Pehaps you should go ask that question to the people who are very very lucky to live in highland park Detroit Say the Woodward and Davison area. Or some of the fine mid town locations of Baltimore. Or perhaps even Flint Mich.

They have had to deal with large Groups of troops in their residential neighbourhoods, they have had to deal with a lack of freedom. For them it is not easy to move. Or those areas would not exist. And yes their is a war there it is the so called War on Drugs.

TS are you implying that all of the people living there have no choice? That a government has required that they remain there, working at a job that is chosen for them. I am not sure I understand you analogy.

[Aloofi]

I wonder if any Iraqi truely belive in Saddam's ideology....
I mean, what if many Iraqis, though certainly not all, actualy believe that Saddam Hussein is the good guy?
I'm asking this because in all societies there have to be a certain percentage of the population that actively support their goverment for that goverment to exist. Repression alone would not make it work. You need people to repress other people.

[dogscoff]

In response to Aloofi's comments:

Yes, Saddam does try very hard to portray himself to his people as a noble, heroic and righteous ruler who cares for his country. I don't know how many of them (if any) actually believe him.

For a look into the mind of an iraqi citzen, take a look at this site. I think the URL was originally posted here by someone else. As far as I know it's genuine.

It's a blog by an iraqi, being written day to day right now. The guy is educated and observant, and seems to be under no illusions about the nature of Saddam. All the same, he doesn't seem to regard George Bush as his liberator. It's an interesting read, anyway. Take a look.

[Aloofi]

By the way, what happened to 86 suitcase nukes that were stolen from Russia by the Russian Mafia years ago?
Have anybody heard how many have been recovered?
They were kind of small, 2Kg of Plutoniu, if i recall correctly, not enough to blow up an entire city, but could take out something like 4 blocks, definitevely a terrorizing weapon.

[jimbob]

Aloofi: Are you sure that isn't just an "urban legend"? It seems somewhat unlikely/unverified to me, that's a lot of nukes to go missing without world-wide media hysteria.