Helo News game related.

[Karagin]

Helos are not resilient; I have seen the routed from ground fire, MANPADs, AA, and SAMs far more than I have seen them do anything practical.

The AI loves to shoot at them the second it gets LOS to them and won't stop until you, as the player, break that LOS.

I would say that someone is trying to use their helos as tanks, not as what they are flying targets that draw attention the second they get above the treetops.

[Aeraaa]

I dont know, in my experience high end Russian helos are so resilient that AI uses them almost like Tiger tanks in 1943 and gets away with it. Most of the time, I hit them only when stationary and use an ATGM. On one hand, it enables the AI not to lose 500 points in an instant. On the other hand, it enables unrealistic tactics like the one mentioned before (plus, there are also PBEM games...)

Regarding helos, it would be interesting if the flying artillery tactic could be implemented as in this war (helos unleashing rockets in an upwards arc as an ad hoc artillery). Perhaps it would be a good idea if rocket armed helos could have bombardment ability.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Tell that to my APACHE crews that along with helicopters are all over "God's Green Earth" this was why several years ago I was wondering if we create "Auto Rotation" in the game you might lose your helicopter but by the same token you might save your crew and some soldiers if in a troop transport helo.

And we did look into this several years ago. Mostly we found some Helos armor was rated lower than they should've been against ammo at the 23mm (VIPOR/APACHE) BECAUSE those values needed weren't available when they were entered into the game. And there were some older ones dating back before Andy and Don to include more contemporary ones as well.

My game world again is ONLY the AI one. When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them.

So, when I "bring them to the party" MANPADS are the least of my problems though they've caused me headaches as well. It's the big stuff that waiting for me and the AI VERY RARELY has disappointed with its "welcoming committee".

This why terrain masking is so important no matter the type.

Some are more resilient because unlike fighters except with some armor around the cockpit they actually figured out years ago helicopters because of their flight limitations might just need more of it.

And don't get me started on the more modern EW and Decoys
that are out there. Those are items we can't fully simulate in the game though they exist in the RW. So I'd call that a tradeoff with the perception helicopters are too "strong".

Last time I checked the Ukraine is a fairly flat and open country and when you use your air assets (Including Helos.) to drop "dumb bombs" over plains and farmland then your commanders as a dumb as the bombs their telling you to drop in that environment.

Even I can shoot down a helo in open country with a "AASIRSBG" ALRIGHT I'll translate-Anti-Aircraft Sneeze Injected Recoil Spit Ball Gun.

We're getting caught up in the videos, we've seen some successes on both sides in using attack Helos and if you've seen the ones, I've seen they're ALL flying "nap of the earth" and fast. There's one of a Ukrainian Mi-24 that was flying no more than 15 ft. over cars on a road.

That MIGHT help to avoid radar detection, makes you harder to hear you coming (Think about it the higher you are the more "space" you create for sound to travel further and wider in all directions. Same concept as Sonar in the open ocean versus in a bay) Which I believe is another thing we can't simulate "Nap of the Earth" flight.

I'm of the opinion that this matter really is a DRAW for both sides of the argument. Not just for the above but also because MANY people have postulated the opposite view that helicopters are too vulnerable.

And there you have it. I terrain mask and still use them. I can count on my hands and the number NOT reaching 10 how many crews have survived one of my 23/25 game generated campaigns when part of my core units.

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) code AND KILL IT.

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Gee, ......." a difference of opinion"

That usually means we have it nailed when nobody is happy for opposing reasons

[DRG]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) code AND KILL IT.

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there.

Regards,
Pat

Somedays I really do dispair.

It's one thing coming from a newbie to the game...... quite another coming from a veteran player

There is a DEAD CERTAIN way to test "theories" like this that take maybe less time than to type a long post about it

Set up a game like this


Why that way you might ask.

This allows you to pick for the AI "attacker" and see what the AI would buy if the AI was the "defender".

This allows you to test theoies like "When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them."

The answer to that question is in the game. You just have to look for it

So.......... you will need to run this through a half dozen times because like everything else the picklists have randoms built in so it's not the same every time

You want to be able to purchase for the AI so you can test this "how the AI seems to know I got them." theory.

So..... buy the same thing the first few times or alternately whatever floats your boat

To keep it manageable set Ukraine ( or whoever ) to 5000 points and set player 2 to XXX which allows it to buy to it's max for that battle type

Set player 2 air sorties to 15

Buy nothing but gunships for the P2 AI. Quit deploy for P2 and then you will be brought to the deploy screen for P1. Auto deploy ( it's just easier but clicking on manual deploy works too)

Once you see the units for P1 on the map go to the HQ memu........ check how many DEDICATED manpads were bought.... ignore the ones that might be bought with an infantry formation as that is even more randomized and the AI does NOT check what weapons are in an unit or formation before buying it

Do that a few times and count how many Inf sams are bought ( and SPAA / SAMS if you like )

Next do the same thing only this time buy nothing but MBT's for P2

Do that a few times and count how many are bought each time for both types of attack and tell me if you see a significant difference ( you won't ). Keep in mind that the larger the sample the less chance of getting repeatable random events. You want the average of as large a sample as you are willing to take

[Suhiir]

I did a LOT of experiments with helos once upon a time.

If they have no armor they're vulnerable to any and everything.
With 1 they're pretty resistant to rifle fire.
At 2 they can handle HMG type AA fairly well.
With 3 or more they're VERY hard to hurt with MPADs and light AA (20ish mm).

The Hind use to have 4 armor (and the Apache 3, now the Hind has 2 and the Apache 4) making them quite literally a flying tank. No clue when the armor on the Hind was reduced but I'd suggest the Hind and Apache have no more then 3.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

now the Hind has 2 and the Apache 4) making them quite literally a flying tank.

REALLY ?

Please do tell me the unit number of this mythical beast

EVERY Apache in V16 has 3 except the ones Egypt uses and they have 2.......... NONE have 4



This is not the first time someone whos been on this forum for a while has suggested or proven they are not using the current OOBs.

Its really getting annoying

Last release was V16 if anyone is playing the game with anything but V16 you need to DL the update and recheck your facts before posting here


Ok??

[Suhiir]

In my US Army OOB unit# 936 AH-64D Apache shows HF=12 HS=4 ... i.e. 4 armor.

Did V16 come out while I was in the hospital? I may have missed it.

It also means I've been updating the wrong version of the USMC OOB!

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

In my US Army OOB unit# 936 AH-64D Apache shows HF=12 HS=4 ... i.e. 4 armor.

Did V16 come out while I was in the hospital? I may have missed it.

It also means I've been updating the wrong version of the USMC OOB!

Yes it does. I thought that was understood in our PM conversation when I told you the only change to the USMC since last release was the arty photo. I assumed you remembered we have been releasing every spring for years

BECAUSE.... In the email I sent you Oct 24 I said....

SO IF you have the last update installed to MBT ( v16 ) you don't need my OOB to start work

IDK how I could be any clearer...

This is for everyone else.

IF YOU HAVE NOT CHECKED FOR GAME UPDATES THIS YEAR ( or cannot remember the last time you did)....... DO SO NOW

The current version shows at the bottom of the start up screen...... it should be V16

[Karagin]

Even with armor, the helos are not flying tanks. Once they are in the sights of AA, anything, they don't last long and usually are chased off the damn map.

What settings do you have things at for toughness and all that? That might be why your stuff is not reacting like others. I have more issues with the AI-run fighters shrugging off hits and somehow knowing where to strike my armor or flanking units with damn near perfect ability to get kills than any era helos making through the game if they go above NAP.

A couple of weeks ago, I had a Cobra shot down by VC rifle fire because I moved too close to them, and well, the AI took advantage of my mistake, no flying tank there.

Could it also come down to how you are using them? Tactical use might be why yours seem to be flying tanks and others are not.