[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Narrew]

See Teal, we are not too far apart *family hug* though we both have different opinions, and hey that is the way things are here in the US and that's a good thing.

I want to take up your comment about our Politicians. One of the things I think our Founding Fathers intended was that "serving our country" would be a sacrifice, not a permanent pay check that our elected officials get after 1 term. If they did sacrifice their public (income and what ever) and would not get a lifetime paycheck after they left office, then perhaps they would "work for the common man". Especially if they were told, once you serve in office, you have to live with Medicare health when you retire (ohh I know, how can you make that happen, but it would be nice if they have to take the medicine that we take).

At one time, I thought that term limits would fix it, but I have changed my mind over the years. There are good people from both sides of the isle that DO care about the people (ohh we can disagree how best to serve the people, that's cool), but many career politicians are the bane of our Country's well being.

[teal]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
So what if the lower income person pays a greater percentage of their income in taxes? That is simple economics. The more money you have to begin with, the more you have left over after you pay for all those things which are the neccesities of life, food, shelter, clothing.

In a perfect world, everyone would pay for government services exactly what they got out of it. So, if I drive my car 100 miles/month on the county roads and someone else drives 1,000 miles/month on those same roads, I should pay 10 times as less in "county road tax" as the other person because I used the road ten times as less. Sadly, I know of no easy way to calculate this benefit and thus to pay a fair tax for my use of government services. Could you imagine the paperwork that would result from such a system: "let's see here, I drove 14 miles yesterday, that's $1.40 in road tax, and the police arrested a burgular who was going to break into my house tommorow so they have billed me $200 and the firedepartment was nice enough to stop that house across town from burning down and setting the whole city ablaze. They have billed me $0.77 which they calculated as the cost of my home times the percentage chance it would have burned down if they had not acted, etc. etc." (and yes, these examples were shown as being deliberatley impossible to calculate in the real world, how do you quantify the benefit that you recieved from the police department?)

So, given that calculating the exact benefit each individual gets from government services is imposible, we should try and arrange things so that whichever simple model we adopt get's closest to whatever that value actually is.

Geo has effectively argued that benefit is proportional to how much one *spends*. I.e. I get more out of government services the more I spend. I shall argue that benefit derived is more closely proportional to how much one *earns*. Or to put it another way: given the choice between a sales tax generating $X and a flat income tax generating $X (in a world with no other taxes, ha!), which one should we choose?

To answer this question, let's look at several government services and try and decide whether the benefit recieved from them scales more closely as a function of spending or of earning.

1) Roads: Here it seems likely that spending would scale more closely to benefit. One would buy more gasoline if they used the roads more, and the more goods one buys the more that they had to be trucked in from elsewhere and thus the more the roads were damaged due to your buying the good.

2) Police and fire protection: Once again it seems that the benefit scales as a function of spending, since the more expensive house you buy, the better the nieghborhood and the more likely it is to be that you will have excellent police and fire coverage.

But what a minute here. How do I put a value on the stability that functioning infrastructure brings to a society? The wealthier person only has a wealthy career because of this stability. Smack a New York City stock broker into downtown Kabul, Afghanistan (which lacks the devloped infrastructure of the west) and ask them to start earning a living and they will soon find themselves doing something other than stock brokering. Put a janitor in the same situation and it is much more likely they will be able to continue janitoring. In this case, we have to say that the stock broker got far more benefit from the government services provided by the U.S.A. because put him in a situation where those government services function poorly and his livelyhood is hurt drastically more than the janitors. In this case I think we have to say that benefit scales as a function of income, not necessarily spending. Much of whatever income you are making is really only possible because the society as a whole is quite stable and that is largely a function of a mostly good government providing roads, courts, police protection, national defense and even quite possibly help for someone who recently lost their job and would other wise have to turn to crime (gasp!, ok maybe not that Last one .

So which of these two viewpoints more closely resembles reality? I have to say that income scales more closely to benefit derived than spending does, although both are imperfect.

Also, we may decide as a society that people should not be taxed on necessities (i.e. food, clothing, shelter). This is because if we tax someone who can not quite provide for all their necessities then we are in effect taking the bread out of thier mouths. We may decide, as a society, that we would rather just tax people on "luxuries" instead. Now the question arises, what is a necessity and what is a luxury? Buying a $2 shirt from Goodwill is surely a necessity, how about a $10 shirt from the Gap, or a $100 shirt from a designer store? Obviously the $100 shirt is a luxury, yet if we have a blanket "no taxing clothing policy" then the person who buys it would be able to escape the luxury tax in part by buying luxurious "necessities". A better way to approach the problem would be to allow each person a set deduction of $X where $X was determined to be the necessity threshold (that amount of money necessary to provide for basic necessities). This would involve far less paperwork and interfering with the market than trying to figure out which kinds of shirts are luxuries and which are necessities.

One final argument against the sales tax, which, although short, is perhaps the most powerful of all. The world is becomming increasingly globalized and it is now quite easy to buy something from somewhere other than where you live. Typically when you buy something off the internet (for example) you do not pay sales tax. Some people seek to avoid sales taxes by using the internet for big ticket items. Thus a sales tax (even a national one which could be circumvented by ordering from Canada or Mexico) has a bad effect on the free market and will become increasingly more of a logistical hassle to collect and fairly distribute as time goes on.

Teal, who has used up his "arguing on the internet" time quota for the month and must now turn back to "doing productive things" time.

[Wardad]

So, how much of this is true?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

My Darn Good Resume Accomplishments as President
By George W. Bush, The White House, USA

I attacked and took over two countries.

I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any president in US history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of TV.

I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other president in US history.

I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)

I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.

I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more that any other president in US history.

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of Congressional oversight that any presidential administration in US history.

I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

I withdrew from the International Criminal Court.

I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.

I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

I spent more money on polls and focus Groups than any president in US history.

I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

I am the first US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans that any other president in US history.

In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil war.

I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less that two years turned every single economic Category heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent achievement.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas drug conviction has been erased and is not available).

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.

I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father's library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

Any records of minutes from meeting I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

DO YOU WANT FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH! THINK ABOUT IT. SEND THIS EMAIL TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[Loser]

Aaaw, why u got 2 h8?

[edit: done making serious Posts in this thread]

[ September 22, 2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Loser ]

[tesco samoa]

WarDad should that mass email list a few sources to bring a little creditability to it ??? Cause right now it looks like one of those pass it on emails that passes right to the delete bucket.

P.S. anyone see Letterman Last night. That bush speach was funny... "The left hand ( raises the right one ) knows what the right hand ( raises the left hand ) is doing."

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Wardad:
So, how much of this is true?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

My Darn Good Resume Accomplishments as President
By George W. Bush, The White House, USA

I attacked and took over two countries.

Because the heithens attacked us and killed nearly 5,000 people over the Last ten years.

I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the treasury.
To fight terrorism and to save lives.

I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history
Because records need to be broken

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.
I take responsiblity for the economy even though it started to tank in 98 and 9-11 did not help matters.

I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
Following the buy anything record setting 90's that saw dumbasses buying stock in internet companies with no long term finacial plans who all eventually went under.

I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
And the bastard deserved to die for what he did.

I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
At least I will not be leaving office as a lying fellon, impeached by congress who cheated on my wife and then pardoned nearly 40 criminals.

In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
And I am damn proud of it.

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.
Just think of how bad it would have been if Gore had been in office. We'd all be under a chinese dictatorship by now.

I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any president in US history.
Except for Bill Clinton who's entire compaign was bought and paid for by the Chinese.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.
And if I had not been elected that number would have been 8 million americans who had Last their jobs.

I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.
Or so it was reported by the Liberal Press yet never proven.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
The economy goes round and round.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
At least I did not pardon more criminals in us history than Bill Clinton.

I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of TV.
I have better things to do, like run a country and fight terrorism. Let the Democrats worry about sound bits and tv stardom.

I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other president in US history.
Yes, I re-affirmed the constitutional rights of americans and help to prevent the liberal dark side from taking or protecting americans from their rights and freedoms. Score one for the good guys.

I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
Yes and these companies were all run by democratic supporters who made a living off of scamming the American people. It is up to the justice system to prosecute these criminals, not the office of the President.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
Price will rise as a resource is depleted and the democratic members of the Senate and Congress prevents the research or exploration of new alternative fueles and fuel sources.

I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
Oops, sorry this came off of bill clintons resume.

I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
And Fance surrendered to them. For that I am sorry.

I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
They were old and out dated and needed to be trashed.

I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.
That is to say that I do not let the press run my presidency as the previous president did.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)
Hot damn, I need to get these fools into a poker game.

I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
We joke, the only states that have not gone bankrupt are the ones run by republicans.

I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.
That is to say we discovered these jokers during my presidency and did something about them unlike my predessor who make millions off of them.

I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the world community.
I did this because they lacked the courage, dedication, and fortitude to stand up to a terroristic oppressive mass murderer phycopath.

I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.
By combining several governmental departments into one organization rather than 20.

I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more that any other president in US history.
War and freedom cost money.

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
[b]Hot damn, and to think these are the same people who turned a blind eye to the million being killed in Yugoslovic wars. Turned a blind eye to the millions killed by Saddam over the years, and turned a blind eye to the horrors committed by the Taliban in Afganastan. The UN's idea of HRC is to run away and hide at the first sign of human atrocities and let the genicide go unchecked or challenged.[b]

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
Woop de dooo

I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of Congressional oversight that any presidential administration in US history.
And thank god Al Gore isn't in office, we'd all be speaking chinese by now.

I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
Well not me really, they did that to themselves a long long time ago.

I withdrew from the International Criminal Court.
The court was currupt.

I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
By inspectors I mean traitors to those who lost their lives on 9-11. Traitors who care more about the way a terrorist is being treated than they ever did for the people these freaks of nature terrorised both in their own country as well as around the world.

I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
I mean what for, they can't count either.

I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
Do I get a medal for this? At least I did not take any money from the Chines with the intention of selling our country to them like my predessor did.

The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
Well that just goes to show you, no matter how well you know someone, they can still surprise you.

I spent more money on polls and focus Groups than any president in US history.
Ooops, wait, that was one of Bills again.

I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
Well if you are so misinformed as to consider what I did as hiding, then what Bill Clinton did to escape going to war was out right disertion.

I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
Oh wait, another one of bills accomplishments. I was the one who exposed them.

I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
If you would believe those who know nothing about anything but claim to know everyting about nothing.

I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
The French, you just gotta love em.

I am the first US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
Blood is always thicker than water. Wait for the North to start its crap up again, and then see who the south fears most.

I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
Live and let live I say. If their debt to society is paid then so be it. I did this so Bill Clinton can run for congress.

I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.
Well the second all time record that is, the first was held by the appointees of Bill Clinton during his administration.

I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans that any other president in US history.
Oops, that should read I have resored more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history. Damn democrats must have gotten a hold my resume again.

In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil war.
I like light beer but many Americans prefer non light beer.

I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less that two years turned every single economic Category heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent achievement.
Well to be perfectly honest, Clintonomics was in full swing driving us right into bankrupty since early 98, and if I had not been elected, our economy would have been obliterated a year after Gore took office.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas drug conviction has been erased and is not available).
Hot damn, boys will be boys. At least I am not a fellon like my predessor.

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.
The paper work was misplaced, but once it was found, all was forgiven.

I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
It was non of their damn buisness any how.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father's library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
What? I read them yestarday!

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
As are many many other poeples records. And for the record, I am opposed to this.

All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
As are many company record for many companies around the nation.

Any records of minutes from meeting I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
As are most records of this nature.

DO YOU WANT FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH! THINK ABOUT IT. SEND THIS EMAIL TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX[

You have got to love the dimmly informed and utterly clueless fools that blindly follow the democratic tune. Talk about role reversals, mistruths, and utter made up crap.

Clinton drove me away from the Democratic party, and dumb asses like the moron who made this email keep me away.

(My opinion is mine alone.)

[Erax]

OK people, forgive me if I sound a bit harsh, but as an inhabitant of 'the rest of the world', I would like to state my opinion. While I speak for no one other than myself, I believe there are many people out here - a whole lot many people - who would agree with me (I also got a little carried away towards the end, but that is honestly the way I feel).

The US had - and has - the power to make or break the UN, and this time, they chose to break it. While some people claim that this is the first step in a worldwide power grab, I feel that the problem is, in fact, the opposite.

America doesn't want to take the UN's place. You don't want to take on the role of world leader or even the lesser role of world mediator. As soon as all governments which threaten you have been removed or intimidated into submission, you will retreat back into your isolationism. And that is what makes me mad.

You see, in their day, the ideals stated in the Declaration of Independence were as revolutionary as the Communist Manifesto. Your Founding Fathers believed their ideals applied to all people, everywhere. But from the late 80s onward you did not try to push the world towards democracy and away from oppression and corruption. Sure, you participated in flare-ups in several trouble spots around the world, but they weren't part of a concerted effort.

This is nothing less than tragic. After the fall of the Communisr Bloc, you had the power to create a world according to your own ideals (and believe me when I say that most of us out here think you do have that power) but did not act on it. That is why we do not trust you now. Those of us who hated you during the Cold War still hate you today, but they are a tiny minority. The rest of us - the ones who cheered along with you when the Berlin Wall came down - have been feeling cheated for quite some time now.

The good news is, you still have a way out. Your government says it wants to create a democracy in Iraq, which may serve as an example for the rest of the Middle East. That is exactly the kind of project we've been waiting to see all along. We wish you the best of luck with it, because it is not only your national safety which is at stake there, but also your credibility.

If, in your arrogance, you consider us - and our trust in you - irrelevant, if you believe you can achieve safety for yourselves solely through force and intimidation, you will face increasing opposition every step of the way. Your power, without wisdom, will fall of its own weight.

If, on the other hand, you have the courage to live up to your ideals and make an honest attempt to spread them to the rest of the world, we will stand behind you and help you sweep away everything that threatens you - terrorism, drugs, international crime - because they are also a threat to us. America, seize this opportunity now while you still have it, and take the place you deserve in History.

[primitive]

The speach, Read it !!!

GWB in the UN Sept. 23rd 2003
The regime of Saddam Hussein cultivated ties to terror while it built weapons of mass destruction. It used those weapons in acts of mass murder and refused to account for them when confronted by the world. The Security Council was right to be alarmed.

Maybe it is time to come up with some proof soon ?
Flinging unsupported accusations only works so many times.

[Wardad]

Originally posted by Erax:
If, on the other hand, you have the courage to live up to your ideals and make an honest attempt to spread them to the rest of the world, we will stand behind you and help you sweep away everything that threatens you - terrorism, drugs, international crime - because they are also a threat to us. America, seize this opportunity now while you still have it, and take the place you deserve in History.

You over estimate our abilities and our dedication.

Our trade deficits is huge. Our goverment and personnal debt load is huge. Our industrial base has been immitated, undercut, and exported. The "brain" positions and the service economy is also following.
We have many people who do not give hoot about American Ideals. Many immigrants came here for the almighty buck. Many natives do not understand how worse life can be elsewhere.
The only thing our mixed population can seem to agree on is taht "we all want a litte more".

I know career military men in the National Guard reserves. They complain about the lack of good clean men (er, persons) that can pass the drug tests. Many Guard positions go unfilled because of this. Many young men (er, persons)are discharge because of drugs and because they failed to complete counseling requirements.

Can we sell Justice and hold charades like the O.J. Simpson trial and Rodney King trial?

Can we sell democracy and flaunt election fraud?
The Bush election was not our first case of fraud.
How about LBJ, and Tammay Hall, etc...?

We are in no position to kick the worlds butt.
We are certainly in no position to grab the moral high ground.
We certainly are not evangilists of democracy and human rights.

We can not help the world alone.
Maybe France can lead you.

[Mathias_Ice]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
You have got to love the dimmly informed and utterly clueless fools that blindly follow the democratic tune. Talk about role reversals, mistruths, and utter made up crap.

Amen, brother! Thanks for taking the time and effort to rebute that load of crap.