[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
I kind of doubt the "suitcase nukes", if they exist, would destroy 4 city blocks.

Fat Man, the plutonium bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki, had 6 kilograms of plutonium. It essentially wiped out the city (21 kiloton bLast)

If you can get critical mass from 2kg, I think the boom would be at least in the kiloton range.

Phoenix-D

Well, if not 4 maybe 6, but it doesn't make Manhatan an oversized football camp. It have been estimated that concrete buildings are capable of stoping the bLast wave from these mini-nukes. Also, it might be less than 2kg, though I think I remember it was 2kg. I'll do a search on this to see if I find this info Online. I got this info originally from a military magazine.

Oh, and the nukes dropped in Japan didn't destroy the whole city in either case. I'll have to get some numbers before saying what percentage survived from each city.

[jimbob]

Askan:

Stop bagging the French

I say, the more we bag the French the better! Hehehehe They've ceased to be militarily relevent to the world stage (as has Canada, Australia, etc) but still demand that they be respected as a military power (unlike Canada and Australia). Notice that almost no one is making fun of the Germans? The Russians? It's because the French are ... mimes... that won't shut up!

Askan:

War is how Americans learn geography

Oooo, that's a good one!! I agree whole heartedly that we can all do well to make more fun of the US. That said, have you heard the one about the farmer from Saskatchewan who...

Thermodyne:

I have no doubt that we will find evidence of French handy work when disarming Iraq

Oh, I have very little doubt of this. Yes, the US did sell lots of stuff to Sadam, and yes, many nations have unclean hands when it comes to Iraq, but France (to distinguish the people from the Government to be fair) has been the largest supplier to Sadam since before gunpowder was invented. Personally, I think that France wants "peace" because Sadam is one of their best customers, and possibly to hide their complicity in Sadam's regime. Russia would also like peace, because Sadams' Iraq owes them billions and billions of dollars - a new republic will probably ignore the debt, though I'm unsure of the international rules here. The long and the short, nobody (including the US) has clean hands here... so calling the US a hypocrite is, well, kinda hypocritical.

Take home message: Tibet is the only country on earth that does not have dirty hands regarding Iraq. The UN should sponsor a Tibetan invasion force 1 million Shirpa's strong to put Sadam right.

Mephisto:

One could safely say that quite a majority is against an US war against... Iraq, if not backed by another UN resolution

Yah, and the majority of the world did such a good job in holding back the atrocities in Rawanda, Yugoslovia, Haiti, etc. etc. etc. The majority of the world is spineless, and evidently believes that George Dubbya having a red neck is more a sin than Sadam's outrages against the people of Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds, and very possibly Isreal and the USA.

In summary:
George Bush = Hypocrite + Inbred
Sadam = Murderer + Instigator

I dare say I'll stand up to say which one is bad, and which is worse.

[Ruatha]

I belive the Tibetians would like to invade Tibet first, considering the situation there!

[Aloofi]

Hey, what's up with those rumors of no war until next year?
Is it another disinformation or the Yanks are really planning to have all those pretty little tiny tanks in the Saudi noses until next year?

[tesco samoa]

Hi all.

I have a few replies to make in this thread... But I will not be able to for a few days. Things are really really busy in life right now. And I do not want to post something that I do not mean or is hard to understand ( due to tesco speak ) , or will offend people.

Keep the debate going.

And Keep the name calling out. Especially when it comes to countries and cultures.

Unless their Dutch

[Askan Nightbringer]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Especially the Australians. The way your country treated refugees and immigrants from Iraq after the Last war was not all that kind. Interring them on an island while their fate was determined (should I say predetermined) by the courts. So it is pretty sure that Australia didn’t care much about their fate, at least not enough to offer them a place to live in freedom.

Refugees and immigrants after the Last war? You mean refugees everyday. On one hand the Australian government says Saddam leads a brutal and repressive regime, on the other we send Iraqi refugees home because their case for asylum was not good enough. I am so disgusted with it that I get sick in the stomach. I march, I protest, I write to the papers, I email political parties and I scorn anyone who accepts this inhumane treatment of refugees.
Just because I'm Australian doesn't mean I have to support my governement when it is clearly wrong.

Also, you stated a figure of 80% against the war. Time to put up or shut up, where dod you get your numbers, The Iraqi FREE press?

Well I pulled those numbers out of the air, just as a rough guestimate. My sources are usually the Sydney Morning Herald, the UK Guardian, the Jakarta Post and I even occasionally watch that stupid NBC Today show that screens here at about 1am. But Mephisto is correct, the evidence is eveywhere, most notably the UN Security Council at the moment.

On a more serious note, we should all remember that France has been no friend to the third world. They still maintain a colonial empire, and are often a supplier of arms for regional conflicts. I have no doubt that we will find evidence of French handy work when we disarm Iraq.

Well all the permanent members of the Security Council are very guilty when its comes to arming bastards. Its hard to forget that Powell's picture of a "Terrorist Poison and Chemical Factory" was a British built one and that Saddam got various cultures of bacteria, including anthrax, from the US in the 80s. Basically what was given to the Iraqis in the 80s is now used as a justification for war by the same people who gave him the nasty toys in the first place.

All this hypocrisy is driving me mad.

Askan

[Aloofi]

Will it be war or not?
I don't believe all i hear. A lot of desinformation goes around when war is in the horizon.

Quote:

"TEL AVIV — The U.S. military has been ordered to launch a war against Iraq on March 18, an Israeli official said in a televised report.

Israeli government monitor, Michael Gurdus, reported on late Tuesday that the order was relayed by U.S. Central Command to all American forces in the Persian Gulf. Gurdus told Israel's Channel 2 television that he heard the order being relayed to U.S. fighter-jet pilots and others over U.S. military radio communications he intercepted.

Gurdus is regarded as the leading communications monitor in the Middle East and works for Israel radio and television. He has broken numerous stories because of his ability to intercept and understand foreign-language civilian and radio broadcasts and communications. He said the U.S. military, in its radio communications, refers to Iraq as "bad cows" and "kabab", Middle East Newsline reported.
On Monday, Israel's media reported that the United States had demanded that senior Israeli officials stop issuing predictions of when the war would erupt. Israeli defense officials have concluded that the United States plans to strike Iraq after March 17, the deadline set for Iraq to answer questions regarding its missile and weapons of mass destruction programs.

Israeli defense officials have concluded that the United States plans to strike Iraq after March 17, the deadline set for Iraq to answer questions regarding its missile and weapons of mass destruction programs.

Pentagon sources dismissed the Israeli report. But they said the U.S. military in Kuwait has already been placed on high alert, and that the preparations for war will intensify over the weekend.

U.S. officials have reported an increase in air missions in Iraq and said President George Bush does not plan to wait weeks until any confrontation with Baghdad. They said the United States has more than 225,000 soldiers in the Iraqi theater of operations and has focused operations on southern Iraq.

"In order to keep the pressure on the Iraqi regime to disarm we have stepped up Southern Watch operations," Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Tuesday. "We are now flying several hundred sorties a day, with 200 or 300 over the southern no-fly zone."

The U.S. bombing missions included targets in western Iraq near the Jordanian border. Meyers said F-15E fighter-jets dropped munitions against an air defense radar in an airfield in the H-3 region, used in 1991 to launch medium-range missiles against Israel.

The U.S. military has also ordered accelerated testing and production of new weapons for the war in Iraq. On Tuesday, the Pentagon said it tested a 21,000-bomb that contains 18,000 pounds of high explosives and meant to destroy Iraqi bunkers. The Pentagon has also signed new contracts for the accelerated production and delivery of the Patriot PAC-3 missile defense system. A PAC-3 battery has been deployed in Kuwait and U.S. Central Command hopes to station additional facilities in areas of the Persian Gulf and Middle East. "

[geoschmo]

Michael Gurdus past ability at prediction notwithstanding, this report is highly suspect. The US military command doesn't announce specific orders of battle to it's fighter pilots over open channels a full week in advance.

Geoschmo

[ March 12, 2003, 20:00: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Michael Gurdus past ability at prediction notwithstanding, this report is highly suspect. The US military command doesn't announce specific orders of battle to it's fighter pilots over open channels a full week in advance.

Geoschmo

In some circles, Gurdus have been known for a long time to be "friendly" with the Mossad.
I don't think he would say anything that "The Shadow" doesn't want him to say...

[Suicide Junkie]

The U.S. military has also ordered accelerated testing and production of new weapons for the war in Iraq. On Tuesday, the Pentagon said it tested a 21,000-bomb that contains 18,000 pounds of high explosives and meant to destroy Iraqi bunkers. The Pentagon has also signed new contracts for the accelerated production and delivery of the Patriot PAC-3 missile defense system. A PAC-3 battery has been deployed in Kuwait and U.S. Central Command hopes to station additional facilities in areas of the Persian Gulf and Middle East. "

Maybe its not over oil, or terrorism, or anything like that.

Maybe the military just needs to do some empirical testing of the new weapons on the market?

[ March 12, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]