[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[General Woundwort]

As I understand the way their minds work, it was the half-measures and quick retreats of the 90's that were signs of weakness in their eyes. The present situation in Iraq is entirely different.

Anyways, I've way surpassed my quota on the "politics" thread, and Fyron wants me to convert the supernova pics into SEIV format. Back to lurk mode...

[deccan]

Originally posted by primitive:
GW:
The Iraq war was an impressive display of military might, but we already knew from GW1, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan what the US forces was capable of. As a display of political power, so far the war (and the peace) has been a disaster, as it only have shown that the US is willing to face an opponent who can't retaliate. North Korea now knows that it will only need the capability to kill something like 10-15 000 American soldiers in a war to make it politically impossible for the US to invade. Somehow I believe the world would have been better of if they didn’t know that.

Your argument is specious, I must say.

Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan was necessary to make any rational person believe that someone would "only need the capability to kill something like 10-15 000 American soldiers in a war to make it politically impossible for the US to invade", at least in circumstances that were not an imminent and clear danger to American lives. Somalia alone was enough, if an example were needed, which I don't believe to be the case.

For that matter, saying that the U.S. tries its best to limit itself to wars that it can win with the least amount of casualties and losses to itself is a statement of the obvious that is true for anyone, even SEIV games.

A better, sounder argument would be the one made against Tony Blair: the U.S. government did know that Iraq did not have WMDs immediately prior to the war, but either closed its eyes to that knowledge or even deliberately "sexed up" arguments that Iraq did have WMDs in order to justify a war that it had already decided, for whatever reasons of its own, that it wanted to have.

But the Hutton inquiry in the U.K. has pretty convincingly shown that the Blair government did strongly and honestly believe that Iraq did have WDMs. If so, the spooks messed up big time and should be heavily swatted for that, but this wouldn't be the first time that they'd messed up and this kind of error is entirely different from your implication that they deliberately went to war even while knowing that Iraq did not have WDMs.

As for the lessons drawn by would-be owners of WDMs, I would argue that they should draw conclusions opposite to what you say. Submit to intrusive inspections and comply fully and unreservedly with U.N. and IAEA directives or you WILL be smacked down regardless of whether or not you actually own WDMs.

[primitive]

Deccan
As said before, what we believe does not matter. What Kim Jong Il and his colleagues believe do matter.

While the people of North Korea suffers, Kim and his buddies (believe they) can sit safely on their fat asses blackmailing the world with their WMD’s. Hey; we need some new Mercedeses, give it to us and we will contemplate NOT to sell our missiles to ……

On a lighter note: The Onion (from february)
Strange how spot on those guys are sometimes.

[primitive]

Kudos to an honest politician: Polands Foreign Minister Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz.

Full story

The golden quote: Direct access to crude oil is Poland's "final goal" (with the involvement in Iraq)

You got to love a guy who don’t beat around the bush (bad pun intended )

[Unknown_Enemy]

I just wanted to write that when I post an article from Dr. George Friedman, it has nothing to do with Thomas L. Friedman, author of jewels like

"Our War With France"
http://mason-west.com/Research/News/US/frenchenemy.php

Now if you don't mind a long read, enjoy from another author :

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/03/in...l?pagewanted=2

[tesco samoa]

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl...asp?reg=AFRICA

boy this thread just keeps popping up... well to continue with tradition....

[deccan]

For those interested, the 14th November 2003 issue of The Economist includes an excellent survey of America. Some selected gems:

"From the outside, the best indication of American exceptionalism is military power. America spends more on defence than the next dozen countries combined. In the nearest approach to an explicit endorsement of exceptionalism in the public domain, the National Security Strategy of 2002 says America must ensure that its current military dominance - often described as the greatest since Rome's - is not even challenged, let alone surpassed."


"On this view, America is not exceptional because it is powerful; America is powerful because it is exceptional. And because what makes America different also keeps it rich and powerful, an administration that encourages American wealth and power will tend to encourage intrinsic exceptionalism."


"For most members of this administration, who are mainly from the heartland and the American west (Texas especially), Europe seems far away. They have not studied there. They do not follow German novels or French films. Indeed, for many of them, Europe is in some ways unserious. Its armies are a joke. Its people work short hours. They wear sandals and make chocolate."


"In terms of income per head, America is the wealthiest large industrial country. It is also the only western democracy to have practised slavery in the industrial era. It has the highest crime rate and highest rate of imprisonment (though crime, at least, is falling towards European levels). Its society is among the most religious in the world. Perhaps less obviously, Americans are more likely than almosy anyone else to join voluntary associations."


"America has one of the lowest tax rates among rich countries, the least generous public services, the highest military spending, the most lawyers per head, the highest proportion of young people at universities and the most persistent work ethic."


"Pew's pollsters sought to measure this belief by asking people in 44 countries, 'Do you agree or disagree that success is determined by forces outside your control?' In most countries, fewer than half though that success was within their control. In only two did more than 60% consider success a matter of individual effort: Canada and, by the widest margin, the United States."


"In the 2000 election, 63% of those of those who went to church more than once a week voted for George Bush; 61% of those who never went voted for Al Gore. About 70% of those who said abortion should always be available voted for Mr Gore; 74% of those who said it should always be illegal voted for Mr Bush. As Pete du Pont, a former governor of Delaware, pointed out, a map showing the sales and rentals of porn movies bore an eerie resemblance to the map of the 2000 election results."


"To Europeans, religion is the strangest and most disturbing feature of American exceptionalism. They worry that fundamentalists are hijacking the country. They find it extraordinary that three times as many Americans believe in the virgin birth as evolution. They fear that America will go on a 'crusade' (a term briefly used by Mr Bush himself) in the Muslim world or cut aid to poor countries lest it be used for birth control. The persistence of religion as a public force is all the more puzzling because it seems to run counter to historical trends. Like the philosophers of the Enlightenment, many Europeans argue that modernisation is the enemy of religion. As countries get richer, organised religion will decline. Secular Europe seems to fit that pattern. America does not."


"Over 80% of Americans say they believe in God, and 39% describe themselves as born-again Christians. Furthermore, 58% of Americans think that unless you believe in God, you cannot be a moral person."


"Over time, evangelicals have become more willing to engage in politics, too. White evangelical Protestants represent almost a third of registered voters now, up from slightly below a quarter in 1987. Their leaders have tried to unite the various evangelical churches as a political force, establishing the Moral Majority in 1979 and the Christian Coaltion in 1989. Their comments speak for themselves. Franklin Graham (Billy's son) called Islam 'a wicked religion'. The former president of the Southern Baptist Convention called the Prophet Muhammad 'a demon-possessed pedophile'."


"Some of the features that make America different cause problems within the country because they are divisive. True, qualities such as Americans' optimism and their stress on individual responsibility encourage unity. But other features are more partisan, including religiousity, small-government conservatism and perhaps intense patriotism. America is already deeply divided between traditional and secular cultures. The increase of partisanship, the culture of political victory at all costs, Mr Bush's own policies and his enormous appeal to traditional America all risk making matters worse.

Yet the contest of values is a source of strength as well as weakness for America. New opinions are always bubbling up; elite views are always being tested. This is messy but not acquiescent. De Tocqueville argued that the most insidious threat to any democracy was apathy, which conducts people 'by a longer, more secret, but surer path towards servitude.' America's culture wars help to bar that secret path."

[Loser]

Thanks, deccan. How are things in the Solomon Islands?

[Geckomlis]

Deccan,

Along the same theme...

"America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor,
and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American
humorist Kin Hubbard, "It ain't no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well
be." It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America
is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were
poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than
anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor.
They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or
drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely
to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: "If you're so smart,
why ain't you rich?" There will also be an American flag no larger than a
child's hand -- glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are
obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for
any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money
is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and
blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and
powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately,
than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times.

Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing
without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one
another because they do not love themselves."

Howard W. Campbell, Jr. in Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse-5"

[Loser]

Ack!

A wonderfull book, to be sure. But simply untrue.