[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Maybe its not over oil, or terrorism, or anything like that.

Maybe the military just needs to do some empirical testing of the new weapons on the market?

Come on, this war is because Saddam REALLY have nukes, and the US can't probe it, but have to take him out.
The only choice i see is between going to war this year or going next year, but there is going to be a war, and time is on Saddam Hussein's side.

[Suicide Junkie]

Sorry, I should have had a smiley in that post, and a quote to show my intended level of seriousness.

[raynor]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ruatha:
Ruatha: "Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action."

Of course words are easy to say. Words are how everything has to be communicated. What is the point of that part? It is like stating "english is a language".

I for one am not willing to give up my freedoms for temporary security.

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Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action.

Yeah, yeah. Someone has already said them. But when they are that good, they bear repeating.

If you don't understand what they mean, look around your local community for some WWII veterans. They can probably explain them to you a lot better than I can.

[ March 12, 2003, 21:58: Message edited by: raynor ]

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by raynor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ruatha:
Ruatha: "Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action."

Of course words are easy to say. Words are how everything has to be communicated. What is the point of that part? It is like stating "english is a language".

I for one am not willing to give up my freedoms for temporary security.

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Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action.

Yeah, yeah. Someone has already said them. But when they are that good, they bear repeating.

If you don't understand what they mean, look around your local community for some WWII veterans. They can probably explain them to you a lot better than I can.

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Well. The most WW2 vet's I'll find will be in Germany.
Should I go ask them what it means??

(Ofcourse I can ask the Finns, they REALLY know about it!!!!!, you ask them ! They were attacked by both the Russians and the Germans and fought to protect their homes and families.)

What I really mean and what so many seems to fail to understand is something I will try to be really pedagogic about here:

It's so easy sitting in your comfy chair sayin "Fight for your freedom Iraquis, afgans tibetians etc etc"
It's much harder when you are actually living in that situation, riscing your life, your family and friends lifes for a cause that will most propably fail.
So saying that YOU should fight if you where living there is hypocrisy of the worst kind!
It's much easier to fight if you're in a army with your buddies backing you up and a well functioning structure behind you.
Yes, alot of people fight in wars and I'm pretty convinced I would too. But to for a moment belive that you are a better person than the millions living under oppression who doesnt dare to do anything about it is demeaning to those people.

I do not know what I would do in that situation but most likely I am as most people and would try to stay alive, meaning I wouldn't take my grandpas rifle and try to kill of the entire Iraqi army.

Those who says that those who doesn't fight for their freedom doesn't deserve it are propagatinng for anarchy.
Most people living in a democracy are by their definition not worthy of that.
I for one wish to live in a society where everyone are treated equally, disregarding their will to fight and die.
I will go to war to defend those who doesn't wish to fight. This does not mean that I would start a futile guerilla war if I where living in an altogether different situation, as in a well controlled totalitarian state.

I don't know if there is any other way I can get this message across to you. But I would like to again say; Do not for one second belive that you are braver than most of the chinese (as an example) people who live under oppression. You just have a better situation and are able to voice your belifs even if they are way wrong.

(This above has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion if there should be a war in Iraq or not!)
In the previous liberation of Kuwait I sent in my application to my army to go along, but they thought it was more important that I finished my med school instead of serving there as infantry guarding our field hospital.
Now my goverment firmly opposes any attack upon another nation without the approval of the UN, I back them in this decision. For arguments see much of what others have stated in this thread. If need be I can send some more arguments aswell. The main point being that we decide this together in the UN. As to what I belive the UN should decide I have already stated that I'm beginning to think that perpahs a war might eventually be necessary, but there is as of now no need to rush it.

[ March 13, 2003, 16:00: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Aloofi]

The problem with those opressed chinesse is that many of them are perfectly happy, believe in communism and don't feel oppressed at all.
I've never understood why is so hard to believe that people can be happy under a dictactorship.

Let me ask you, if you were communist wouldn't you be happy under a communist regime and would you despised the market economy system that puts you in the hands of foreign corporations?

Many many Pashtun were perfectly happy under the Taliban, because the Taliban represented their beliefs and way of live, plus the Taliban brought peace and order to Afghanistan after 22 years of brutal Soviet ocupation and civil war.

The way I see it, democracy is only good to let Muslim Fundamentalist blow themselves up massacring innocent civilians, democracy is incapable of striking back with the full force of their military wiping out the terrorist supporters without worriying if they were civilians or not. As long as there is a terrorist supporter there will be terrorists. That's the way it is, and we can't change it.

I would take a dictatorship that represents my interests any day over democracy.

.

[raynor]

It seems like there are many countries where every able bodied person is required to serve some amount of time in the armed services. This is not the case in the United States. I wonder how that would affect most USA-ian's perspective if that happened in the States.

Did anyone read Heinlein's Starship Troopers or see the movie? In that fictional story, you couldn't vote unless you served a stint in the military. I wonder how that would work out if it was implemented in the US?

[Sinapus]

Originally posted by raynor:
It seems like there are many countries where every able bodied person is required to serve some amount of time in the armed services. This is not the case in the United States. I wonder how that would affect most USA-ian's perspective if that happened in the States.

You mean like during the Vietnam war?

Did anyone read Heinlein's Starship Troopers or see the movie? In that fictional story, you couldn't vote unless you served a stint in the military. I wonder how that would work out if it was implemented in the US?

Nitpick: it was federal service, and not limited to the military. Go reread the book, and ignore the movie since it was made by someone with an axe to grind against Heinlein.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Aloofi:
I would take a dictatorship that represents my interests any day over democracy.

Of course you would. How do you think dictators get and keep power? Not by themselves of course. It's on the strength of a loyal, self-interested group of supporters like yourself that are rewarded with wealth, power and position for their service and obedience to the dictator. And If the dictator did not represent your own personal interests you would accept that as well? I suppose you would have to. Living in a dictatorship you would not have any other choice. That's kind of the point.

Geoschmo

[CEO TROLL]

Maybe IRAQ is just to difficult a target for us wimps.

Maybe we should invade FRANCE instead.

[Crazy_Dog]

For some interesting info about the position of the US gov.......

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...826528748.html