Balance opinions

[Velusion]

quantum_mechani said:
That said, it does make a great many changes, but I don't think the vast majority of these increase the learning curve. Very few people have memorized, for instance, the costs of units and spells not widely considered viable in MP, and that is where almost all the changes lie.

I was exaggerating the amount changed by a little bit

Well the fact that lots of the non-viable MP strats have changed is a bit intimidating. I can sorta now identify strategies and counter strategies to certain builds/nations/plays - the fact that CB includes a bunch more viable alternative strategies (and counters to existing ones) means I would have a lot to learn.

That said I do think CB is more balanced than the vanilla game and well done. I just don't have the time to play/learn it

[Jazzepi]

djo said:
I chose "...too much hassle" for the reasons given above: too many changes to absorb. I'm not worried about most of them; I don't mind the minor changes, and I like the boosts that encourage variety (eg, I like being able to use the drakes).

What gets me are the dozen or so "gotcha's", like when you forget that a key path booster has jumped a level and you can't reach it anymore. Or when a key unit is changed enough to be strategy-changing. They come up very infrequently, but they are frustrating when they do.

I would also like better documentation, but the current docs aren't too bad.

I got hammered by the fact in CB that the normal recruitable commanders, the guys with the sword pointed upwards in one hand, are in fact, mapmove 1. This just hosed me one game when I was relying on them to move a bunch of guys. I was going through rough territory first, and I didn't realize it until I got into an area with some plains.

I do like a lot of the changes from casual observation, as we used CB mod in one game I played in, and I got rushed by a nation of demons and I was able to build several of those demon killing chimes. Which made /way/ more sense than the chimes being level 8 construction.

Jazzepi

[K]

Considering that the learning curve for Dom is measured in years, and any "unbalanced" thing is basically available to anyone, CB mods are a waste of time.

I find that CB mods are for tinkerers who find that their play style is not a winning style, and they want to change the game to fit themselves rather than learn to adapt.

[quantum_mechani]

The argument goes both ways. In a similarly inflammatory spirit, it could be said people who have found a simple set of strategies that effectively deal with almost any situation in the base game are too lazy to learn to adapt to more options.

It also seems that as far as I can tell, few CB supporters are new players, but rather Dom2 veterans that have in fact tried most the options dominions has to offer.

[DigitalSin]

I played a bit of Dom2, then got Dom3, and thats when I actually started to learn. I find that the balance mod is really quite useful in balancing everything, and is most likely what got me into the magic system of Dominions. So I say keep going and balance 3.10, you aren't hurting people who dont want it, just helping people who do.

[KissBlade]

K said:
Considering that the learning curve for Dom is measured in years, and any "unbalanced" thing is basically available to anyone, CB mods are a waste of time.

I find that CB mods are for tinkerers who find that their play style is not a winning style, and they want to change the game to fit themselves rather than learn to adapt.

Quite the opposite actually. Most people who play with cb mods are just simply tired of abusing the crap out of the game and eager to see some variety.

On that note, qm, you know my opinion on old chinese wizards. =P

[Ironhawk]

I only ever play with CB Mod. As Kissblade says above, playing vanilla is just asking for exploits to be brought into play which always ruins things for me.

I'm surprised to find that people feel there is a "learning curve" to the balance mods tho? I mean, you just plug it in and go. Do you seriously memorize every unit from every nation and every spell? It seems a better strategy to me to just abstract your knowledge of dominions - what values make a unit or spell good/bad and then you are ready to play any game with any mod. Just glance at the units and spells that fall into line with your strategy and you are good to go.

[Jazzepi]

Ironhawk said:
I only ever play with CB Mod. As Kissblade says above, playing vanilla is just asking for exploits to be brought into play which always ruins things for me.

I'm surprised to find that people feel there is a "learning curve" to the balance mods tho? I mean, you just plug it in and go. Do you seriously memorize every unit from every nation and every spell? It seems a better strategy to me to just abstract your knowledge of dominions - what values make a unit or spell good/bad and then you are ready to play any game with any mod. Just glance at the units and spells that fall into line with your strategy and you are good to go.

I'm not sure what "exploits" exist in vanilla that don't in CB.

The learning curve comes from these sorts of things...

"What gets me are the dozen or so "gotcha's", like when you forget that a key path booster has jumped a level and you can't reach it anymore. Or when a key unit is changed enough to be strategy-changing. They come up very infrequently, but they are frustrating when they do."

What ends up happening is that you have to forget everything you knew about the races in vanilla, and learn them new in CB. Even changing one level path on a nation's mage can make a huge difference in the strategies that are viable with that nation.

Jazzepi

[quantum_mechani]

Jazzepi said:
Even changing one level path on a nation's mage can make a huge difference in the strategies that are viable with that nation.

Actually, I very much agree on that particular tweak. It is my feeling that magic paths almost define a nation, and I am very reluctant to tweak national mages.

As for relearning the entire game, I have a very hard time imagining this, CB is designed with the goal of keeping all base game strategies viable. There are actually very few nerfs, and any of them I'm open to changing given some convincing.

EDIT: I think what Ironhawk means by exploits are simply strategies veteran player find it difficult to not apply at every opportunity, being so universally applicable. A good example might be spamming crossbows with Marignon. Even in CB this remains a default strategy, but at least now there are other options worth considering in specific situations.

[Cor2]

I don't play CBMs because (in order of importance to me):

1 I like the game the way it is, more or less

2 "unbalanced" is subjective and therefore anyone elses attempt at balance will be unbalanced to someone else.

3 the learning curve and lack of documentation