Are devils worth 7 blood each?

[Cainehill]

Thufir said:
The relative worth of astral vs. water is quite dependent on the nation, but IMO it's clear that for any clamhoarding nation (which is what we're talking about in this case), the water is worth more than the astral.

I don't think so. They're making clams _because_ astral gems are more valuable to them. After all - compare to fever fetishes. If you run a surplus of fire gems, but need ... air, you have to convert 4 fire for each air gem. The astral gems are more valuable because they're essentially worth twice as much as any other gem when alchemizing from one to another.

I say this as someone who has clammed, and who has fevered, and who has had at least something like 40 fetishes and 40 clams going in the same game, with a non-fire, non-water, non-astral nation, without ever alchemizing to build the fetishes or clams.

[Kel]

Uhm ... the hammers are assumed on both sides. Removing them does not change the ratios which is what this is all about. Soul contracts yield an effective gem supply which is 150% greater ( given the input ) than the other sources.

You are adding extra factors to the equation. Barring extraneous factors, clams take 10 turns to pay themselves and soul contracts take ~ 11.5 .

Even that isn't really a great comparison because since there are so many different factors that differ between the two but assuming alchemical losses, the cost of speeding up clams beyond your natural water income, and not taking into account reduced gold, pop and research loss from speeding up blood income makes for a flawed basis of comparison.

Admittedly, it would be difficult to come up with the losses from speeding up blood production so the obvious thing to do is to not take into account rushed production on either side, in which case, clams pay for themselves faster than soul contracts.

- Kel

[Huzurdaddi]

You are adding extra factors to the equation. Barring extraneous factors, clams take 10 turns to pay themselves and soul contracts take ~ 11.5 .

Uhm if you are alchemizing ( note: soul contracts give essentially blood that makes this a totally valid comparison ) and you have no hammers then it takes *20* turns for a clam to pay for itself.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
Uhm if you are alchemizing ( note: soul contracts give essentially blood that makes this a totally valid comparison ) and you have no hammers then it takes *20* turns for a clam to pay for itself.

Clams actually take only 5 turns to pay for themselves with no hammer if you'd rather have astral pearls, or 10 turns if you want something other than than astral or water. It's only 20 turns if you want to convert them back into water gems to make more clams.

[nakomus]

Soul contracts don’t give gems; they don’t even give blood slaves. They give devils. They are only worth anything at all if devils are what you need. Its also not possible to set up a exponential growth situation with soul contracts, since you cant turn devils into soul contracts.

The soul contract can never pay for another soul contract for free (as is the case for the 20-turn clam with alchemy. This is a very important difference.

Clams give you astral gems, which through alchemy can be used to do almost anything, including get more clams.

Soul contracts get you devils, which are only good for flying around and smashing things. Granted this a pretty generally useful ability, but not nearly as flexible as a high astral income.

I like devils a lot, but I haven’t found soul contracts are a good investment in a close run game. I’d rather have my devils right now, keeping me alive, or killing off the other guy.

[Huzurdaddi]

The soul contract can never pay for another soul contract for free (as is the case for the 20-turn clam with alchemy. This is a very important difference.

I agree with that. 100% correct.

Soul contracts get you devils, which are only good for flying around and smashing things. Granted this a pretty generally useful ability, but not nearly as flexible as a high astral income.

Not as flexible true. However the soul contract produces the end product. You need not spend the caster time ( which is important ) to convert your gems into something that can smash things.

I like devils a lot, but I haven’t found soul contracts are a good investment in a close run game. I’d rather have my devils right now, keeping me alive, or killing off the other guy.

I would imagine that in close game you are spending your blood slaves on SC devils not on devils. It's very hard to actually summon devils in any quanity ( except once you reach blood 9 ).

[Tuidjy]

Once you commit to devils, you are stuck with them. Your opponent will
learn about what you are doing, and will have about ten turns to prepare
for them. As someone who was utterly destroyed the first time he faced
devils, and who has utterly destroyed any devil hoarding opponent since,
I will stick with clams and fetishes, thank you very much.

Thank you for bringing back the memory of decimating and routing more than
a hundred devils and abysyan intantries with two indy sorceresses and a
jade amazonne! And then doing it again, because the guy was stuck with the
soul contract strategy.

[Huzurdaddi]

Thank you for bringing back the memory of decimating and routing more than a hundred devils

You are special yes indeed. No one else has ever obliterated tons of devils.

The assertion is: *if* you think devils are worth 7 blood a pop then it seems that Soul Contracts return more than other investment types of strategies.

[Yossar]

Huzurdaddi said:You are special yes indeed. No one else has ever obliterated tons of devils.

Never?

[Cohen]

Devils are easily killed under storm, with massive spellfire or wrathful skies.

Devils aren't so strong ...
Stormies are, but they're limited to lightning attack, that could be avoided by Lightn Immunity.