OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)

[Endoperez]

So that's a yes for magic?
Is it based on dungeons, or does it also have wilderness?

It might help in borrowing Dominions mythology. Here's what Kristoffer had to say about Ed Kolis' attempt at Dominions roguelike back in 2004:

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

Ha!

That's the best news in ages!

I would definitely play the game and I wouldn't mind doing some beta. I would like to aid in the development of such a game, but unfortunately I have other more urgent projects

Finish it (that's an order)!

From the seriousness of these threads, I thought this would be a major project, something similar to Mount & Blade, eventually aimed for commercial release. I suggest that you take that as a compliment.
For some reason, roguelikes are rarely bothered by copyright holders. That's probably why they're called rogues.

[Omnirizon]

sorry for the terse answer

it will be a roguelike, but more in the tradition of maybe a game like Uncharted Waters or Ogre Battle, or UW fused with OB. Overland travel, trading if desired, battles maybe, but mostly just RPG stuff; encounters and items and character advancement stuff. Encounters are largely with other humanoids, and not an unecessarily large host of random monsters including lice, rabbits, and newts (but there will be troglodytes). Also like Uncharted Waters and Ogre Battle, I'd like the player to be able to have an entourage, and for overland battle to switch to a tactical screen (tactical screen will be more like typical roguelike battle); city and dungeon encounters will already be on this tactical level. I suppose sieges are possible, but current goal is to get a system and character creation and ONE city working.

Lastly, unlike a roguelike, it will not be tiles (or rather, pixels are treated like tiles), thus objects can occupy more than one tile. objects will probably just be circular masks (or tokens) with an alpha-numeric glyph on top, which is good because it allows sprites to be added later. maps and such will be either handpainted or built in tile-like fashion randomly or from text files.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

Lastly, unlike a roguelike, it will not be tiles (or rather, pixels are treated like tiles), thus objects can occupy more than one tile. objects will probably just be circular masks (or tokens) with an alpha-numeric glyph on top, which is good because it allows sprites to be added later. maps and such will be either handpainted or built in tile-like fashion randomly or from text files.

Very promising! I guess the "tiles" could include homages to magic sites.

You really should ask someone (perhaps Kristoffer, since he liked the idea earlier) for permission on using Dominions mythology, if you haven't done it already. As I said, it'd be a pity for any work go to waste.


Also, I'm not sure what kind of discussion you'd like to see. What different nations would look like, or what the city could be like, or what?

[johan osterman]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

[I think the species of monkeys as castes is drawn _exactly_ from the mythology and literature of the Ramayana; it isn't dominions unique at all.
..

You are underestimating the amount of original work by Kristoffer. There isn't that much details on monkey nations in indian myth, or at least not that much that has entered into dominions. A fair bit of it is Kristoffer utilisimg human indian society on Bandar Log. Bandar Log were put into being due to a single sentence in the book travels to Cathay by Swedish historian Dick Harrisson, that mentioned an indian myth of a monkey kingdom. As far as I know there is no systematic treatment of the monkey kingdom in Ramayana, certainly none where various species of monkeys and apes makes up different castes. No mention of tiger riding white markatas. No levitating Gurus. No suggestion that serpent kings or devas ruled over the monkeys. The same sort of added stuff is extant in all nations. Many of them have strong counterparts in history and myth, but all of them have significant fluff added and changed in them.

I don't think Kristoffer would mind if you uses dom content for a roguelike, but I feel your characterisation of Kristoffers input into the dominions nations is misguided at best. Reading you posts it sounds like all these nations were just waiting to be plucked out of obscurity, whole cloth.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by johan osterman

I don't think Kristoffer would mind if you uses dom content for a roguelike, but I feel your characterisation of Kristoffers input into the dominions nations is misguided at best. Reading you posts it sounds like all these nations were just waiting to be plucked out of obscurity, whole cloth.

[falls out of chair] Wait--do you mean to tell me that Agarthan history isn't strictly factual? That the story of the fall of Ermor has been embellished? That the dilution of pure Abysian blood may have been more prosaic Darwinian reality than romantic tragedy? That, just maybe, Bog Beasts don't really exist except in KO's storytelling?

I feel like someone just killed Santa Claus. It's probably better if I just refuse to believe you, Johan.

-Max

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by johan osterman

You are underestimating the amount of original work by Kristoffer. There isn't that much details on monkey nations in indian myth, or at least not that much that has entered into dominions. A fair bit of it is Kristoffer utilisimg human indian society on Bandar Log. Bandar Log were put into being due to a single sentence in the book travels to Cathay by Swedish historian Dick Harrisson, that mentioned an indian myth of a monkey kingdom. As far as I know there is no systematic treatment of the monkey kingdom in Ramayana, certainly none where various species of monkeys and apes makes up different castes. No mention of tiger riding white markatas. No levitating Gurus. No suggestion that serpent kings or devas ruled over the monkeys. The same sort of added stuff is extant in all nations. Many of them have strong counterparts in history and myth, but all of them have significant fluff added and changed in them.

I don't think Kristoffer would mind if you uses dom content for a roguelike, but I feel your characterisation of Kristoffers input into the dominions nations is misguided at best. Reading you posts it sounds like all these nations were just waiting to be plucked out of obscurity, whole cloth.

Fair enough. I've always thought that the most impressive work of KO was his research into cultures and mythology and then mapping this onto their history. I do understand that some flavor specifics such as levitating Rikshi's and specifics in the organizations and constructions of nations are all his own; but I really find the whole bricolage aspect of it all much more creative and grand, rather than those kinds of details.

to that end, it is that bricolage that I want to borrow and build upon.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Also, I'm not sure what kind of discussion you'd like to see. What different nations would look like, or what the city could be like, or what?

yes. what I'm looking for is ideas on what happens after LA. concepts from 16th-17th century must be present. by this time, european influence had been felt around the world, and their trappings of discipline, efficiency, and rationalization were erasing old cultures all over the world in a very significant way.

For Man, Mari, Ulm, Boguras, et al it is probably most appropriate to map events of European history onto these nations. Does Ulm becomes fragmented in a sort of treaty of Westphalia, or somthing like that?

What happened in Patala? Do the Naga's maintain power? Does Man invade and colonize them? Who are these Naga's anyway? Where did they come from? Do the old divinities of Bandar Log and Kailasa return to save the land from the incursion of other nations? Or do the culturally unifying myths erode under the influences of new 'dominion'?

This isn't a war between pretenders for ascendancy like Dominions, so colonization is the new 'dominion'. who are these new pretenders? how do humans treat some of the old and fading fairy and fey figures?

What happens to Machaka? Does Mari invade and ship them off to be slaves? Or does their mountain god and Colossal Fetish fight it out and save this culture to develop in new ways?

What happens to Blood Magic? Does Man and other nations successfully eradicate it only to replace it with some other form of more insidious magical power?

Questions like these.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

For Man, Mari, Ulm, Boguras, et al it is probably most appropriate to map events of European history onto these nations. Does Ulm becomes fragmented in a sort of treaty of Westphalia, or somthing like that?

What happened in Patala? Do the Naga's maintain power? Does Man invade and colonize them? Who are these Naga's anyway? Where did they come from? Do the old divinities of Bandar Log and Kailasa return to save the land from the incursion of other nations? Or do the culturally unifying myths erode under the influences of new 'dominion'?[snip]

Unfortunately, none of this happens to any of these nations, because Hinnom (and Ashdod) Ate Everything. Except for the ones who wound up in the Dreamlands.



-Max

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Unfortunately, none of this happens to any of these nations, because Hinnom (and Ashdod) Ate Everything. Except for the ones who wound up in the Dreamlands.



-Max

that would make it Dreamlands vs the Giants then. sounds like an engaging world. I'll have to start a thread titled "Dreamlands martial arts vs. Giants martial arts"

[Omnirizon]

here is a decent example of what I'm looking for in pulling nations into this 'post-LA' age of 16-17 century settings. I chopped it together by simply doing a bit of research on England's Early Modern History. It segue's almost seamlessly with LA Man. Most nations should do this since a lot of LA is drawn from the trends of their historical counterparts leading into the 1500's (for example Man's declining magic).

			'Man' : "The feudal kingdom of Man has lost all magic of \
			earlier ages, even the holy orders of priests have been \
			abolished.  A parlimentary house has ascended and decreed \
			the Orders of Supremacy which grant a monarchy, rather than \
			a pretender and priesthood, soveriegnty.  In the new bifurication \
			of power there is tension between monarch and parliment. \
			Politics and philosophy rather than the theology and magic \
			now dominate discourse.  Research suffers under the presence \
			of any magic latency.  Outside theology is particularly \
			conflicting in Man's territory.  Man's dominion is effectively \
			their political philosophy, and its leadership and people \
			have the same religious zeal of old in spreading it.",

My intention with Man and a lot of other nations is to portray the eclipse of religion by politics and philosophy as not a stagist historical epoch, but simply the replacement of one 'dominion' by another. the new spreading of modernity and revolution and then onwards into colonialism is part and parcel of the classic dominion spread. Get it?

Magic for man isn't so much gone as it is being reimagined. The text above implies it is gone, but that's not exactly what I have in mind. I'm more thinking that the way man thinks about magic is changing with their politics and philosophy. basically, the effects of a magic scale might be completely reversed to reflect this.

I hope this clarifies what I'm imagining a little.