DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?

[Gurachn]

Thanks iCaMp,
Great site, with a bunch of pics I haven't seen before.
Yeah its looking like the only option is to start from scratch, as I finally dug up an old copy of SP3 and installed it, but couldn't get it to run. No short cuts there, it seems!

I have some pretty decent reference maps (Martin Woodrow's, 'The Last Valley' is a particularly good source) and fairly detailed oob's for both the French and VM for the period March-May 1954.
I also have some pics I took of the area last month, but they won't be of much more than general use as the look of the area has changed significantly in the last half century.

I suspect though, that it will be a while before I am able to devote the necessary time to a project of this magnitude.
Heck, its going to take me a fair bit of time to get familar with the tools before I can even get started!

I don't suppose any of the fine scenario designers/mappers here would be interested in taking a shot at putting together a campaign for this?
I would be very pleased to hand over the info I have and take care of any additional research needed, if there were someone keen to handle the nuts and bolts of putting it into the game.

[Gurachn]

Thanks Fastboat,
I read "Hell in a very small place" when I was based in Germany back in the '80s, and it really put the hook in me. I'm going to have to get another copy of that and re-read it.
'Street without Joy' is also excellent.

Since my last post I managed to find another few aerial photos of the valley during the period in question, and think I have just about got the shape of the river and the locations of the main firebases nailed.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Thank you for the title correction and other. If you don't have these already maybe they will help.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums.../t-133999.html
Will probaly have register with them, normally they have good stuff.
http://www.maplandia.com/vietnam/lai...dien-bien-phu/
http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/
But the photos are captioned in French, somehow I don't think this is an issue!?!
http://www.travelpod.com/photos/0/Vi...ien%20Phu.html
http://pathannay.wordpress.com/2011/...dien-bien-phu/
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...ap&FORM=IDFRIR
It looks like the Miltary Photo has this coveded pretty well. Hope some this will be useful to you.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Last one promise.
1. Military Photo site just click on the "Full version" and the photos will come up on page one.

2. http://www.maplandia.com/vietnam/lai...gle-earth.html
GOOGLE 3-D satellite, it really shows the advantage the Vietnamese had with the high ground. You can clearly make out the French base sites including the runway, Khe Sanh comes to mind here, though, I make no judgements for those that were actually there a lesson learned from my father who saw the fields of Italy, Korea and Nam on a personal note. You might need to add the GOOGLE 3D add on, however it's safe, as none of my safeguards detected anything.

3. Historically you just can't ignore the importance of this battle and the longer term implications it had on policy.

Regards,
Pat

[Gurachn]

Thanks a ton for those links, Pat.
A few that I hadn't seen before, including an excellent overhead shot of the main French base south of the Airfield that clarifies a few questions I had.
That google 3D stuff is cool too. The red marker is actually on Eliane 2, held by a mixed group of Moroccan tirailleurs and Foreign legion Paras, it was the site of some of the fiercest fighting of the battle. They held the position even after the Viet Minh detonated a huge mine (the massive crater is still visible today), and fought until the last bullet and grenade.
Epic stuff!
The long term implications are undeniable, but it's really the grim, desperate and unrelenting nature of the siege that really gets to me.
Cheers,

Grant

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat

Yes it is, i can't add anything other than that i agree with that.
Oh, and i think the "even-more-correct" way would be: l'altruiste, but since this isn't a french class we can overlook that

[Gurachn]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat

Hey Pat,
Your comment that 'bravery knows no flag' is especially true for DBP, as although we often think of it as a battle of French against Vietnamese, the 'French' force was incredibly multinational, with the majority having never seen France. A large percentage of the defending force were Vietnamese from the Red river Delta, or T'ai tribesman, with the rest a mix from Algeria, Morocco, and even Senegal.

When I was 15 I took a trip with my dad down to Gettysburg, and also walked across that field in the footsteps of Pettigrew, Picket, et. al.
I remember looking across at where the guns had been and wondering how the hell they could have continue to march while they were being shot to pieces. Were they mad? Were they made of different stuff than us weak modern men?
It wasn't until I did bit of military service myself that I started to realize what might have motivated them to continue into the face of bloody murder.
I think there can develop a kind of bonding among squad mates to the point where the fear of letting down your comrades can actually outweigh the fear of potential death and mutilation.

Walking the grounds that we read about can give you a special understanding of the trials and horrors those long gone heroes faced. Things impossible to appreciate from books of TV docus. But in walking them alone you can never really understand their motivations.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Grant,
If you're still working on the Dien Bien Phu Campaign, I really think after about the 30yr. hiatus since you indicated you read Bernard Fall's book you should do so again, I just finished it. He covers all aspects of the battle from the initial airdrop and ensuing three days it took to neutralize the enemy, the siege and raid period to a daily breakdown of the final 54 days Gen. Giap decided and was ready to launch his offensive. He covers CONDOR and ALBATROSS, also the what ifs of VOLTURE being implemented, the 16 tank option and the need for BEATRICE.
I strongly feel this would allow you too "scale down" the battle somewhat as you know most of the "French troops" fought from fixed positions and allow the counter attacking French troops to enter the map at an appropriate time based on the archives. Also it has many battle maps included.
As the book points out we would revisit (U.S. Civilians flew resupply missions during the battle.) Dien Bien Phu and bomb it successful in 1965. They found the dead from both sides finally got a grave marker around where the I believe it said, the HUGENUTTE positions were...a new airstrip that criss crossed to original one. I believe the GOOGLE 3D map I posted here earlier shows it.
Unless you've read the book or really looked into the history, it would be hard to fully understand and appreciate not only what all the troops endured, but also the ramifications to East/West relations and also the long term policies adapted by the U.S., China and Russia in S.E. Asia that would culminate with the Vietnam War and for a few years after that war ended.
There are examples of courage and what men will sacrifice for the sake of others that'll make a grown man cry. So I end with...
La main de Dieu honore vraiment tous qui s'est sacificed pour le bien de leur collègue homme.

Not what I intended to work on this morning, but I feel this project is important for everything this battle represents to all that were involved. Grant "march on" and "don't give up the boat!", you won't see me say ship if I can help it!?!

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I got myself pretty caught up in this well intentioned project the scale of which would've been enormous throughout the spectrum in man-hours, planning etc. etc. I reread all the posts to make sure this is new information and it is. So prior to my op, I was researching an unrelated issue when I came across the below items FYI. It was released in 2009 and I see updated to Win 8. And it got favorable reviews (PC Game, Arm Chair General etc.) and might full fill the needs of those with an interest in this battle and the operations associated with it prior to and during the siege. A Vietnamese company would release their own version of the game in Dec 2011 called "7554" sort of a "Call to Duty" styled platform.
On 7554...
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/12/vie...-call-of-duty/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18119526

Dien Bien Phu...
http://www.wargamer.com/article/2741...-dien-bien-phu
http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Product...Phu/DBPhu.html

About my "signature" I've not found one that seemed to fit my "temperament" over the years until I heard this one. Though I could never aspire to accomplish what he did, I've tried to apply and aspire to the thought behind his words in my life.

Regards,
Pat