OA vs Shields

[Asmala]

Why should 2 SD always hit? Of course there will be misses both in SD and normal weapons.

Btw, I've been astonished how ingeniously AI uses SD in big battles. If ship has SD and multiplex tracking and its primary target has no shields left it uses SD against shielded ship while using normal weapons against shieldless target. Impressive from AI.

I'd think the cost is significant particularly in the long run.

[Taera]

the point is, your shielded battleship would build in 4 rounds, while my organic ship would build in 3 or even 2. My ship would cost half as much to support, and for every shielded ship of yours i'd have two or three organic-armored ships of mine. And, the only true counter to my strategy is a racial tech people hardly ever take.

[Asmala]

Taera, you're a way too optimistic. Using armor instead of shield won't reduce the build cost that much. Also you won't have two or three organic armored ships against every shielded ship but perhaps 1.5 or even less. Remember engines, sensors, weapons and ship control costs a lot of minerals.

[oleg]

In any case, OA is by far the best ship defense in early/mid game - before phased shield are researched. The reason is blatantly obvious.

[Fyron]

Asmala, 2 SD would have to always hit for them to be effective in reducing the defensive strength of the phased shields below that of organic armor. If they miss, then they do not reduce the strength at all.

Taera... as Asmala said, that is not really true. Keep in mind that you will be able to support maybe 100 ships to my 95... the costs are not that much different. In fact, organic weapons tend to cost more than regular ones do (comparing similar weapon types, of which PPB is not one, as there is no shield-skipping organic weapon). Unless you use huge amounts of defensive components, this balances out the cheap cost of OA, leaving your ships costing aboue the same amount of resources. Again, unless you have only a few weapons and a lot of OA, in which case your ships will lack the firepower to do any real damage. Remember, fleet stacking means that your OA will not get much of a chance to regenerate for most of your ships. Sure, you can build them faster, but so what? You still have to pay for the construction and maintenance on all those ships, which is about the same as for a "normal" player. When you factor in the necessity of training your ships, the effective "build time" is increased by 7 turns (to get 20%, you can go with 18% for 6 turns if you like). So 11 compared to about 9 or 10. Not that significant. Forgo training and watch your ships lose horribly. Of course, you can always use the exploit and use a huge planet with 2 moons to get 3 training facilities, which leads you to 7 turns or 5-6 turns for max training... still not very significant.

[Asmala]

If the other one of ship's SD misses the normal weapon's damage go to shields. Next turn there's no shields so SD are used to next target while normal weapons finish the first ship. Thus SD are ahead of normal weapons. And they also will stay ahead because normal weapons will miss as well. So it's not so big deal if SD misses.

Bigger problem will be the balance between SD and normal weapons. The shield damage to normal damage ratio should be same as shield to hp ratio. Not an easy goal to achieve.

Ships using organic armor/weapons cost about the equal amount of resources than normal ships. The benefit is that normally organic planets aren't used much so you get "extra resources" by using organic stuff. Of course you can put research centers to those organic planets but usually there's enough places for them.

My opinion is that OA is quite well balanced compared to shields. It has its benefits but aren't too powerful.

[Geckomlis]

Originally posted by Asmala:
Taera, you're a way too optimistic. Using armor instead of shield won't reduce the build cost that much. Also you won't have two or three organic armored ships against every shielded ship but perhaps 1.5 or even less. Remember engines, sensors, weapons and ship control costs a lot of minerals.

That ratio is correct from my (extensive) PBW experience with Organic Tech. Also, you need to consider the opportunity cost of that 1500 points – for example, that amount spent will get you a 25% bonus in Aggressiveness or a 30% research bonus in Intelligence. If you do not win by mid-game, usually you opponent will devour you. In multi-player, your opponents are researching against different tech threats and you can find a niche advantage. In a one-on-one game, an experienced player will know your strengths at first contact and counter – you need to win fast or die.

[Phoenix-D]

Organics cost more than normal weapons, maybe, but -in organics-.

The rest of your ship, the CQ, engines, LS and bridge, sensors, ECM, and any shields you use, still are very mineral heavy.

A BC with CS, ECM, 6 Quantu, Engines, a Solar Sail, 4 sheild generators, a PDC and 6 APB costs 14100 min, 200 org and 1660 rad

Same ship with Organic weapons, 10510 min, 5600 org, 580 rad.

Replace all but one shield generator with organic armor, and you get 8110 min, 6120 org, 580 rad. Less than half as much mineral cost, and the total cost for all three resouces is 15960 vs 14810, in favor of the Organic ship.

[Roanon]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
A BC with CS, ECM, 6 Quantu, Engines, a Solar Sail, 4 sheild generators, a PDC and 6 APB costs 14100 min, 200 org and 1660 rad
Replace all but one shield generator with organic armor, and you get 8110 min, 6120 org, 580 rad. Less than half as much mineral cost,

8110 = less than half of 14100? Hmm Last time I had math they told me differently

[Taera]

this thread is to respond to Fyron's statement that OA's lose horribly to shields, which he already stated. They are excellently balanced. After all, the point of organic trait is lots of weaker, cheaper ships. But lots. Maybe not that much more, as some people said, but enough to keep your ships busy.

As for heavily-armored ships, well, in my experience ships with HEAVY armoring and a few (BIG) weapons are extremly fearful - im talking about racial armors, for their regeneration. If the ship is solid enough, it's likely not to go soon. With only 5 armors you get 150 regeneration per round, which is aint bad. The only worry are the ID's, but well, everything is threatened by ID's unless you go heavy shielding, which is then vulnurable to shield-only weapons.